Mid drive

[Trevormonty]

How does Banfang MAX compare to likes of Bosch and Shimano Steps in responsive. I have Shimano and like it, as for noise not to much of issue but suspect hubs are lot quieter.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Drop the seagull poo colour and the world has enough turquoise e-bikes

I like the Stromer integrated packs, the right shape to fit cells and nice and slim. Maybe the world needs a standard for integrated packs? It would bring costs down for both manufacturer and client.

 

[trex]

as for noise not to much of issue but suspect hubs are lot quieter.

crank drive is generally a bit quieter.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

A hub drive bike like the Wisper Torque models with sine wave controller and torque sensor are pretty well silent, certainly a lot quieter than Bosch mid motors etc.

The Bafang Max is OK but not in the same league as Bosch or even Steps IMO.

All the best, David

 

[trex]

I know your aikemas are also very quiet because it has high reduction ratio (12.6) thus running at around 2500 RPM, more than twice the RPM of equivalent Bafangs - however, some Chinese mid motors like the Bewo (TCM) are even quieter. The motor is inrunner, its small spindle runs similarly at around 3000 RPM but the gearbox is helical and entirely metal, produces virtually no noise.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Brilliant Trex, it's good to see how these guys in Asia are doing such great job on hub and crank technology. I am not a great fan of the current crank motors, but no doubt they too will get better. It's currently my opinion that for most people a hub drive is the better option.

All the best, David

 

[trex]

I always suspected that the real pull of crank drive is high and illegal speed. (geared) hub motors are optimized for 15mph, so tend to lose most of their efficiency at over about 19mph while with a CD motor, you only have to trick the speedo and push the bike easily over 23mph without losing efficiency.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

You are probably right Trex, I hadn't thought of that, it would be good to know how many illegal dongles have been sold in the UK.

No wonder Bosch don't put a bit of software in there making the bikes fail when a dongle is attached.

 

[anotherkiwi]

The GSM will easily pull 35 kmh on the flat at quite low Amps.

No wonder Bosch don't put a bit of software in there making the bikes fail when a dongle is attached.

The software isn't clever enough. It would be easy enough for them to limit top speed to 25 kmh dongle or no dongle. They have a GPS in the some of the displays already if I understand correctly?

 

[anotherkiwi]

Just a thought: all the clever programmers at Bosch were working on the VW software...

 

[EddiePJ]

I always suspected that the real pull of crank drive is high and illegal speed.

Not for me.

I prefer to stay legal, and the pull for me, is the off road usability which I consider to be more of a complete and useable package when compared to that of hub drive.

This was actually something that I gave great consideration to during the recent Swiss Alps trip, and came to the conclusion that there was no way that I would have wanted a hub drive bike for the bulk of the climbing.

I have no idea how a hub drive would cope with say this ride that had an elevation gain of 6,428ft over a pretty much continuous climb of 10.4 miles. It would have tackled the first half with ease, but when the hard packed stone/scalping track became a rock garden for the remainder, I am certain that I'd have given up very soon after the seven mile point. I should also add that some sections were even impossible using a crank drive system. Loss of traction on the very loose surface being the limiting factor.

http://doarama.com/view/906954


I have always found that when using a rear wheel driven hub drive eMTB off road, the front end of the bike becomes too light and difficult to control over rocks and other tricky terrain, and the balance is completely wrong, which makes hopping over objects an impossibility. Make those objects several miles in length, and it would soon lead to misery and ride failure.
The other concern either imagined or real, is how long would it be before spokes break through endless bashing of the rear wheel when tackling rocky descents.

I'm not saying that hub drives eMTB's aren't brilliant fun to ride off road, because they are, and they certainly have their place, and indeed do have a few plus points over crank drive, but when conditions worsen, I firmly believe that crank drive is the right type of power system to choose.

edit.. I do have a contradiction with myself, as I am currently in the process of planning a rather unique hub drive trials ebike using an Orange Zero. For all of the above perceived negatives, I still really love and rate them.

 

[soundwave]

i take it you dont want a bomber bike then @55kg yes it will go fast, fast going down DH tracks then forget it its to heavy you be on ur ass most of the time.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Not for me.

I prefer to stay legal, and the pull for me, is the off road usability which I consider to be more of a complete and useable package when compared to that of hub drive.

This was actually something that I gave great consideration to during the recent Swiss Alps trip, and came to the conclusion that there was no way that I would have wanted a hub drive bike for the bulk of the climbing.

I have no idea how a hub drive would cope with say this ride that had an elevation gain of 6,428ft over a pretty much continuous climb of 10.4 miles. It would have tackled the first half with ease, but when the hard packed stone/scalping track became a rock garden for the remainder, I am certain that I'd have given up very soon after the seven mile point. I should also add that some sections were even impossible using a crank drive system. Loss of traction on the very loose surface being the limiting factor.

http://doarama.com/view/906954


I have always found that when using a rear wheel driven hub drive eMTB off road, the front end of the bike becomes too light and difficult to control over rocks and other tricky terrain, and the balance is completely wrong, which makes hopping over objects an impossibility. Make those objects several miles in length, and it would soon lead to misery and ride failure.
The other concern either imagined or real, is how long would it be before spokes break through endless bashing of the rear wheel when tackling rocky descents.

I'm not saying that hub drives eMTB's aren't brilliant fun to ride off road, because they are, and they certainly have their place, and indeed do have a few plus points over crank drive, but when conditions worsen, I firmly believe that crank drive is the right type of power system to choose.

edit.. I do have a contradiction with myself, as I am currently in the process of planning a rather unique hub drive trials ebike using an Orange Zero. For all of the above perceived negatives, I still really love and rate them.

I agree Eddie, for off road, very steep terrain and for hopping over rocks and roots, basically mountain biking, a Bosch mid motor system is ideal.

All the best, David

 

[trex]

possibly. I would say a BBS02 36V 25A is a good deal more flexible.

 

[Cip57]

Mid Drive is better for climbing. Pedals equal more RPM's than Tire giving you more torque @ lower rpm's. I have a Stromer rear gear-less drive drive which is great on road. Under 7mph the motor whines and torque is gone.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Mid Drive is better for climbing. Pedals equal more RPM's than Tire giving you more torque @ lower rpm's. I have a Stromer rear gear-less drive drive which is great on road. Under 7mph the motor whines and torque is gone.

Mid-drive is better for climbing than what and which mid drive are you talking about?
A Bosch drive is better than a Stromer on steep hills. It's better than the Wisper on very steep hills. The Wisper would beat a Sunstar mid-drive on very steep hills. My Xiongda hub-motor trumps all of them.

You have to be careful with general statements because there's a lot of different motor systems.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I'm with d8veh, depends on the hill in question. Now that I have a few 100 km under my belt I would say different not better.

Hill climbing is all about gearing so I would say that the Giant bikes with double chainwheel and Yamaha motor would probably be better in my conditions than the Bosch.

My Mxus with 34 tooth granny gear would climb walls, or at least ramps over 20%, I tried it. I tried the same with the GSM and failed (i.e. stopped well before things could go wrong).

 

[EddiePJ]

You have said it yourself.

You have to be careful with general statements because there's a lot of different motor systems.

Also there are lots of different terrain and conditions to use said motor systems.

My Xiongda hub-motor trumps all of them.

You make the same mistake as you have accused Cip57, in the very same post.

Your set up would fail in the steep rocky terrain of the Alps, and would potentially be a complete pain in backside on many of the places and conditions that I ride. Just like any hub drive would.

Equally though, hub drives can be so much more fun off road if the conditions and terrain are correct for their use. I'd say that hub drives off road have given me more smiles in the way that they deliver the power, but the main reason that I love them, is the way that rear hub drive motors seemingly unload the front end of the bike and make it very light, this is brilliant fun in the right and safe conditions. I also like the way that in at least the two that I have owned, that they allow you a little cheat in relation to crossing smaller puddles or terrain where you can't get a full pedal stroke. On swift push before the section, is usually enough to give the motor an extra second or so of power to get through or across.

The downsides of hub drive in off road use easily out weigh the plus points though.

Downsides for me are..

• Poor weight distribution
• Poor off road handling due to weight distribution
• Unsprung weight
• Heavy rear end which makes hopping over obstacles impossible, and would make rocky ascents all but impossible.
• Potential overheating on arduous lengthy climbs.
• More hassle to remove the rear wheel, and yet another spanner to carry.
• Cabling which could have potential to become caught up
• Greater spoke or even possibly rear hub failure when tackling jumps, or when descending rocky terrain.
• Greater potential for water ingress when tackling deep water filled ruts
• The light front end which I love is would also be potentially dangerous when trying to attempt rock gardens or very steep climbs

I do like hub drives enough though, that my Orange Zero trials bike build is more than likely to going to use one, over the choice of crank drive.
But that is being built for a very specific use, where speed is always likely to be just walking pace, any drops are going to be very slow and controlled, with landings onto soft terrain. I also want that light front end, and the more compact motor design and less bulk that a crank drive has. The hub drive system also has zero crash impact risk from hitting anything hard within the crank area.

So both systems in my opinion have advantages and disadvantages, laziness of ride and I'm guessing lack of complexity, must be a couple of the hub drives greatest plus points.


.

 

[soundwave]

http://derestricted.com/enduro/my-first-professional-ebike-race

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You make the same mistake as you have accused Cip57, in the very same post.

Your set up would fail in the steep rocky terrain of the Alps, and would potentially be a complete pain in backside on many of the places and conditions that I ride. Just like any hub drive would.

I don't think I have made a mistake. The Xiongda has immense torque- much more than a Bosch in bottom gear. It's torque is also very controllable though either current control (PAS), speed control (throttle) or a combination of both. It's not a very heavy motor at about 3kg. Downhill, the weight at the rear helps and uphill you get better traction, and most important of all, it doesn't matter what gear you use, because its torque is independent.

Ultimately both systems provide torque to the back wheel, so why do you think a hub motor would be a pain?