Whatever.. There was and is very considerable drag with the Urban Mover . I have no such drag with the Bosch . It is as easy to cycle with zero power as any conventional heavy bike.
Mid Drive for off trail and Hub Motor for flat commutes, true or false?
- Thread starter nabs
- Start date
that's why I said you have to try a modern hub bike like my 16kg Faro. It's nothing like your urban mover. I like it so much that it's been my bike for a year now.
Here is a typical gearbox inside a Bafang motor. The ballbearing in the centre is a one way needle bearing, acting as a clutch. CD motors have two, hub motors need only one.
two clutches, one for the motor (so called the primary reduction gear on the BBS01 and blue gear on the TSDZ2, same as the clutch on the hub motor), and one for the bottom bracket / cranks which is found in the middle of the main gear cog.
the one next to the motor's spindle is the white nylon gear (called the primary reduction gear). The other is built into the centre of the large main gear, you can rotate the cranks backward without turning the main gear but if you turn the cranks forward, the clutch latches and turns the main gear.
You can see the main gear clutch here;
white nylon gear:
You can see the main gear clutch here;
white nylon gear:
Confused now! I thought Woosh said that torque sensor bikes don't need a brake cutout because you need both torque and cadence sensors to be active to power the bike unlike a throttle that has priority over a cadence sensor. But if a torque sensor behaves a bit like a throttle in terms of priority, is there any possible risk that once the cadence sensor has been activated (ie because the bike is moving), the torque sensor accidentally jambs on in its own activated position? If there's no brake coutout how do you stop in that situation?
on bikes with torque sensor, the cadence sensor is needed all the time - if the cadence sensor stops, the bike stops.
The risk you have with the throttle on e-bikes is a mechanical jam.
The internal design of a motor and its controller takes into account the correct RPM range for the job in hand. In that respect there will be no difference between either motor, hub or mid, "horses for courses!" so to say.
Furthermore, modern BLDC motors are very efficient, up to 90%! See here:-
Electric motor - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
This is partly the reason that many items are now being built with an electric drive, soon very large ships will be also be so built!
I know that some bike hub motors are built with gears and clutches, insofar people here have mentioned that, and I do believe both mine were direct drive motors, but they would "free wheel", with no noticeable resistance.
Apparently, some have no freewheel, and without battery power available, are heavier to ride (I have been told!). But such a blanket statement about hub motors as you made, is not fully true.
I also believe that some (cheap) hub motors , are possibly made with no gears, direct drive to the axle/wheel, but SEEM TO possibly have a free wheel, probably the cheaper ones at a guess. But I do not know that as a fact.
Similar to the ones I just happened to have bought, as hub motors with gears, generally make noise, not loud (when working correctly!) of PLASTIC gears meshing. But neither of mine have done that, even though the first one did a really very high mileage, before I gave it away in a fully working condition.
But as I never have needed to dismantle either motor, they just simply worked, I cannot say that for certain!
I also feel that the hub motors are generally better cooled, which I am sure further aids a long, trouble free life!
You may find this video informative about both hub types:-
Electric bicycle hub motors vs mid-drive motors: Which should be on your next e-bike?
Electric bicycles are becoming increasingly popular forms of two-wheeled electric transportation for both commuting and pleasure riding. The two most...
electrek.co
But me having heard about the problems that some Bosch owners have had over the years with their expensive "steeds", motor problems, gear problems, service problems and also guarantee problems, has kept me and my pocket book FAR away from such possible problems = No Mid Drive Bikes!
But each to his own choice of motor style, and thats the way it should be.
regards
Andy
nabs I currently ride 3 Ebikes with differing power methods , not all at the same time I might add . I have a Batribike Quartz 20 in. wheel Folder bought nearly 10 years ago . This front hub with 200 watts is my choice for 5 mile Shopping trips, as although it is underpowered it is the most comfortable , a convenient size and would less likely to be stolen . My mid motor` Flare` with 700 mm wheels is obviously faster has plenty of torque and can catch you unawares with the acceleration when starting off in confined spaces with careless power selection . Spoiled by `flighty`steering on the skinny tyres and the nuisance of power loss after changing gear with the mechanism that senses the gear change to cut the power . This also gives a rather clunky change and means that to avoid gear changing the default is to increase the assistance level . The Fat Tyre Folder with 20x4in. tyres is a rear hub drive with a suspension seatpost and Lidl cushion saddle added , fast, but still not as comfortable as the older Folder to ride . A combination of a too soft front suspension fork and tyres at just under 30 psi for mainly metalled roads spoil this machine and give a rather hard ride .
From my experience for a Commute I would advise a rear hub drive and 26 in. wheel with 2 in. approx . tyres . Suspension seatpost and a nice comfy saddle could be added if that supplied does not suit . Front fork suspension and a battery of at least 12Ah would be a must, as would folding pedals to make manoevring in confined spaces easier .
My choice from 3 for my 30 mile rides is the rear hub drive Fat Tyre, fast, powerful, with a handy thumb throttle , easily manoevrable and a well `planted`solid ride .
From my experience for a Commute I would advise a rear hub drive and 26 in. wheel with 2 in. approx . tyres . Suspension seatpost and a nice comfy saddle could be added if that supplied does not suit . Front fork suspension and a battery of at least 12Ah would be a must, as would folding pedals to make manoevring in confined spaces easier .
My choice from 3 for my 30 mile rides is the rear hub drive Fat Tyre, fast, powerful, with a handy thumb throttle , easily manoevrable and a well `planted`solid ride .
What is this 'extra power' through the drive chain on a crank bike?
A fit road cyclist can put out far more power than me plus my Bosch motor.
And roadie bikes use a skinny 11 or 12 speed chain.
As said, chain breaks are very rare - most cyclists never have one.
Chinese kit crank drives might overheat, but I've thrashed my Bosch bike up long, steep, climbs in the Yorkshire Dales.
The battery was barely warm, and I couldn't detect any heat in the motor casing.
Another advantage of a crank bike is that it's an ordinary bike either side of the motor.
Makes things simpler for puncture repair and wheel maintenance.
Commute/trail is a non argument - the bike doesn't know whether you are going to work or just out for fun.
Neither is the cadence sensor worth worrying about, on a Bosch bike at least.
In turbo you are all but 'glass pedalling'.
The two main considerations are cost and rider preference.
I would prefer the lower cost of a hub bike, but that is outweighed by the superior riding experience of a Bosch crank bike.
A fit road cyclist can put out far more power than me plus my Bosch motor.
And roadie bikes use a skinny 11 or 12 speed chain.
As said, chain breaks are very rare - most cyclists never have one.
Chinese kit crank drives might overheat, but I've thrashed my Bosch bike up long, steep, climbs in the Yorkshire Dales.
The battery was barely warm, and I couldn't detect any heat in the motor casing.
Another advantage of a crank bike is that it's an ordinary bike either side of the motor.
Makes things simpler for puncture repair and wheel maintenance.
Commute/trail is a non argument - the bike doesn't know whether you are going to work or just out for fun.
Neither is the cadence sensor worth worrying about, on a Bosch bike at least.
In turbo you are all but 'glass pedalling'.
The two main considerations are cost and rider preference.
I would prefer the lower cost of a hub bike, but that is outweighed by the superior riding experience of a Bosch crank bike.
CD motors with torque sensor output is limited to 4 times the input torque, so about 400W-500W, well within the capacity of the chain.
That's about par with the Bafang BBS01, but BBS02 and BBS03 output is much higher, 700W-1000W.
True. But their equipment is in a different category.
Also true. The Tongsheng TSDZ2 kit uses torque sensor, behaves very much like your Bosch CX. Unlikely to overheat.
I disagree. A commuter bike usually gets a lot less TLC than a fair weather bike. A commuter bike is expected to do at least 2,000 miles a year so little maintenance is a must. It has to be waterproof. My Camino is better for commuting than my Krieger.
I can't see there being a lot of difference between hub and crank as regards motor maintenance.
Both require very little.
I submerged the Bosch motor on my Rose bike in a ford that turned out to be bit deeper than it looked.
I was expecting to be riding unpowered to the bed and breakfast we were heading for.
Bless it, it survived unscathed.
Bosch describe the system as 'splash proof', a definition I comfortably exceeded.
I've ridden all of my Bosch bikes in heavy rain on the road and on cycle tracks, so they would stand up to a year round commute.
Only snag I've had is condensation in the display when I had to leave the bike out in heavy rain.
The only time that I have had a chain snap, was on my pedal bike.
I do wonder where these tales of chain snapping come from.
Neither type of motors requires any maintenance unless there is water ingress, then the ballbearings will need replacing. The cost of replacing the ballbearings for a hub motor is about £80 including labour - a bit more for crank drives.
The main difference between the two types is the cost of replacement motors. It's relatively easy and cheap to replace a hub motor with the same or a more recent model whereas CD motors cost much more.
Motor replacement cost is a fair point.
I've not worn out a Bosch motor yet, although I've only done 5,000 miles on one before I sold it.
The Charger has done about the same.
Croxden's Delite has done nearly three times that.
Third party service of Bosch motors in now available at a reasonable price.
But if it's new motor time, the hub will be cheaper.
I've not worn out a Bosch motor yet, although I've only done 5,000 miles on one before I sold it.
The Charger has done about the same.
Croxden's Delite has done nearly three times that.
Third party service of Bosch motors in now available at a reasonable price.
But if it's new motor time, the hub will be cheaper.
Mine was actually crushed and links bent in one area, unusable, plus I had no "useful tools" available anyway.
I replaced it when I got home.
"Broke" has several ways to be read.......it could even refer to a car after a serious accident!
I do not actually remember anyone writing "snapping" as in physically in two parts, but I have seen that happen, years ago, when a chain was still in use long after its sell by date.
But my memory for such things is getting worse as the years pile up!
some of my customers report about 15,000 miles with the original set of ballbearings whereas some only clock up 2,000 and need a new set. That shows how much variation there is if parking your bike in the rain or riding on a beach where salt gets inside the motor.
i have broken 1 power link, as i kept reusing it and broke 1 chain as the rear mech pulley wheel broke off.
not bad for 5 years old
Attachments
I've known of a chain snapping three times.
When I was resting at the top of Ditchling Beacon, a roadie pushed up the last few yards after snapping his chain.
He was able to rejoin it using my chain breaker.
A lady rider in my cycling group snapped her chain riding across a car park.
The third was a pal of mine whose chain snapped on flat a flat road on the Isle of Wight.
That was another rejoined with my chain breaker.
Seems to me there's very little connection to strain.
Two of the three instances in my sample happened under next to no load.
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