Lurking in Blackpool

[Chris the Sheep]

Hi, I've been a lurker on this site for a few weeks, thought it only polite to at least introduce myself.

I don't have an electric bike at the moment and might not buy one for a few months, I'm just trying to get a feel for what's a rapidly-changing market. This isn't a 'what bike' post, but I'll list some stuff about myself so if anyone has any tips they'd be welcome.

First things first; I already cycle regularly, mainly to do a 20-mile round trip commute. I'm nearly 49, male, overweight but pretty fit; on a calm day I can do the trip easily, and there are very few hills here in Blackpool. However - a calm day is a rare thing!

Typically I'll do the trip about three times a week, but might get interrupted for a couple of weeks at a time when we get a spell of windy weather. When that happens I use my 650cc motorbike instead.

I have two (non-powered) bikes; a Carrera Subway 8 which I love, and a Revolution Country Traveller tourer which I'm less keen on.

The Carrera has an Alfine hub and disc brakes; it's ideal for the conditions here, where sand gets everywhere. After two years I've just changed the chain and sprocket, and given the hub an oil bath; it rides like new. I've also fitted a Big Apple tyre on the front (M+ on the rear) and it makes it an incredibly smooth and pleasant bike to ride.

The Revolution is fine in its own way, but just feels so crude compared to the Subway; part of the problem for me is that the derailleur gears (8-speed Acera) need constant cleaning so the times when it's running sweet are rare. I'm about to treat it to a new cassette and chain, maybe I'll feel better about it then.

The Subway I bought myself, two months before my employer announced a cycle to work scheme; I promptly bought the Revolution so as not to miss out!

Having two bikes for commuting I've found to be really helpful; if one pops a spoke (does happen occasionally) I can use the other until it's fixed. I can do stuff like that, change bottom brackets, cassettes, chains etc and I'm happy to upgrade bits (e.g. previous bike swapped a gripshift for triggers).


So what am I looking for in an electric bike?
1. Needs to be good in headwinds, but hill-climbing ability not so important.
2. Must be able to do 20 miles on a charge.
3. Must be reasonably OK to ride unpowered on the flat.
4. Space to fit at least one clip-on pannier.
5. Capable of taking a 15-stone rider plus luggage, which might include a laptop
6. Look like a normal bike

Nice-to-haves include:
Built-in lights
Alfine or Nexus-8 hub gears (not Nexus-7)
If derailleurs - 8-speed cassette (not 7-speed freewheel)
Trigger shifters (or can be upgraded later)

One final thing is that I 'think' I want a torque-sensor, and I definitely don't want a 'throttle'; I've got the motorbike for that!

Anyone who's come from 'normal' cycling to using an ebike - are my expectations realistic? Or are these bikes really suited to those who can't ride a traditional bike? Do you still get a reasonable amount of exercise?


One thing putting me off ebikes is that the market is still changing so fast; I'm a bit worried about finding that I can't get a replacement battery when the time comes because there don't seem to be any standards. I'd prefer to go with a known name like Giant but from what I've read their electric bikes have been a mixed bag.

My budget's up to about £1300, based on the fact I WILL need to finance the deal. I do have the option of waiting for the next C2W scheme but that means I won't have a new bike until Feb 2014.

I know I've rambled on a bit, sorry!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

For your requirements, virtually any ebike will be suitable, so take your choice: Expensive or cheap, they all work. Stick to one from any of the suppliers that advertise on the forum for better support.

Your bike Carera Subway is a perfect candidate for conversion. The Oxydrive kit at £800 is very nice. It comes set to 15mph but you can adjust it for a lot more speed if you want. It has a nice LCD display with variable pedal assist; special sensors for the brakes, which mean you can keep your existing brakes and changers; and a fairly strong 8.8 aH battery. I think their new motors are now the Japanese Dapush. Next is the Ezee kit at £900 wiith lots of battery options and a bit more power. Then, there's the cheaper kits from 8Funbike.co.uk. Juicy Bike, Cyclootricity, Alien and others.

Ideally, you want a kit with the in-line brake sensors rather than the levers with switches, and the other important key feature is variable PAS, which you get via an LED or LCD display panel. Most kits have the panel, but the brake sensors are rarer, although you can buy them direct from China.

If you're happy about buying from China, for which there's rarely problems, you can get more choice of motors, batteries and other components; however it's not really any cheaper. The cheapest UK kit is this one with bottle battery option:
Electric Bike Kit - from £399 with brushless 250W motor. Buy online at Cyclotricity
then get a pair of these for your brakes from China:
HWBS - Hidden Wire Brake Sensor 1pcs - BMSBATTERY

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Welcome to the forum.

We have an AVE CH Edition. AVE are a German brand mainly producing Bosch powered bikes. The bike is £1299 (normally £1799) and includes hydraulic disc brakes, torque sensor, Schwalbe tyres, built in lights and 8 Alfine hub gears. The bike was rated very good by Extra Energy. A few roadster versions (52cm frame) available while stocks last but most bikes are stepthroughs.

AVE CH Edition electric bikes folding bikes

I would say there are few bikes that will meet all your specification particularly the torque sensor element with hub gears.

Good luck with the search.

David

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Chris,

Below is an example of a Giant with similar spec to your Subway that has been fitted with an eZee Mk2 FWD conversion by one of our customers.
One of our kits would provide what you are looking for and within budget.

 

[Taff]

Regarding Torque Sensor Chris - have a look at my posting (today) in this forum post.

Kudos-KTM Roadshow,Manifold Trail,Derbyshire,April 13,12.00-17.00

Taff

 

[Chris the Sheep]

Thanks for the replies; regarding kits, I want to keep the Subway as my unpowered bike because it just suits me so well - also it has hydraulic brakes, which I think complicates the conversion a bit (and/or means I can't fit a brake cut-off switch).

I might consider converting the other bike but it has drop bars and STI shifters; not insurmountable of course. However, I assume none of the kits are torque-sensing; I need to test ride both types, but the research I've done so far suggests torque-sensing bikes are more 'natural', especially for an experienced and healthy cyclist (who doesn't really need an electric bike, but does fancy one!).

As I mentioned, my main issue is wind; I can have ten miles of brisk headwinds on some days, am I right in thinking that will impact the range significantly? (i.e. ten miles going into a headwind is like ten miles riding uphill!).

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I assume none of the kits are torque-sensing; I need to test ride both types, but the research I've done so far suggests torque-sensing bikes are more 'natural', especially for an experienced and healthy cyclist (who doesn't really need an electric bike, but does fancy one!).

As I mentioned, my main issue is wind; I can have ten miles of brisk headwinds on some days, am I right in thinking that will impact the range significantly? (i.e. ten miles going into a headwind is like ten miles riding uphill!).

Torque sensors are no better than pedal speed sensors. The one drawback of many pedal speed sensored bikes is that you can get a slight delay before power comes in and it carries on for a bit after you stop pedalling. You soon get used to it. The half-second ones, you don't notice, but others are as long as two seconds. Torque sensors are more instant, but it's not a big deal compared with other characteristics like speed, power, range, torque and all the characteristics that make the bike nice to ride.

You're right. I didn't realise that you had the deluxe version. Hydraulic brakes complicates things, but it only makes it more expensive, Juicy supply hydraulic brakes with switches, or you can buy in-line hydraulic switches.

Wind saps power from your battery, just like it saps power from you on a non-electric bike. Unless you're really unlucky, the wind can only be against you one way, so a 9aH battery should still be enough for your journey. They can normally do more than 30 miles in normal conditions with a few hills thrown i for a non-cyclist.

 

[Taff]

As I mentioned, my main issue is wind.

I'm afraid you need the medical forum. Baaaa.

 

[Taff]

Torque sensors are no better than pedal speed sensors. The one drawback of many pedal speed sensored bikes is that you can get a slight delay before power comes in and it carries on for a bit after you stop pedalling. You soon get used to it. The half-second ones, you don't notice, but others are as long as two seconds. Torque sensors are more instant, but it's not a big deal compared with other characteristics like speed, power, range, torque and all the characteristics that make the bike nice to ride.

d8veh has tons and tons more experience than me but I'm sure in my mind now that I don't want any delays in power coming in so it's torque for me.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

d8veh has tons and tons more experience than me but I'm sure in my mind now that I don't want any delays in power coming in so it's torque for me.

You've substantially limited your choice for something that's virtually insignificant. Just find a bike that you like and try it.

Some people want value for money, some people want something more than that, and some people want the best that money can buy. Only you know where you fit in that continuum. As I said before, virtually all the ebikes available meet the needs that OP described, so now he has to choose one with the components and image that would make him happy.

Ideally, he needs to go to one of the events in the calendar of events, where you can try a large range of bikes all at once. There's so many different ones now that it's becoming very difficult to recommend one unless you have special requirements

 

[Chris the Sheep]

Thanks all - like I said in my original post, I'm not planning to actually buy a bike just yet - partly financial, partly wanting to watch the way things go in the marketplace. I won't spend that sort of money without a test ride either.

Regarding headwinds - it's actually not unusual to get a headwind both ways - a morning southerly wind can easily become an evening north-westerly sea breeze, especially if the tide's in. I can use inland routes for a bit more shelter, and we're not talking gales so I don't see it as a problem.

Torque sensor / speed sensor - who knows until I've tried. I think it's important that I'm aware of the differences so I can try the right bikes, but clearly opinions are strong in favour of either, just as they are for hub vs crank drive.

It's no different from many other aspects of cycling; there are personal preferences, there are preferences we don't even know we have until we've tried, and for any particular option there are evangelists!

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Chris,
Good luck, most important thing is to try different bikes to see which suits you as you have said. If you are ever in our area you are welcome to try as many bikes as you like. We do several shows each year but they are mainky local.

David

 

[JuicyBike]

Hi Chris
You are considering all the current topics of discussion on these forums and being methodical in your approach. One thing that you haven't yet asked is the difference between front and rear wheel drive, unless I've been too hasty in only having time to briefly peruse this thread.

If your journeys involve much loose or gravelly surfaces (wind-blown sand for instance) then the handling of a front wheel drive may be an issue for you.

Some argue that having front wheel drive effectively provides two-wheel drive, if you take into account the rider's input at the rear. However, as only one wheel is being properly controlled by the rider (the rear) the front wheel may still suffer a tendancy to unexpectedly loose grip as it powers against a loose surface - which can badly affect balance and handling.

Well worth trying both types of drive to form your own opinion.

 

[trex]

Chris,

With a budget of only £1300, your choice of bikes is limited to Chinese bikes.
One way to narrow down the list of suitable bikes is to work out how much assistance you need in terms of NM - Basically, 20NM hub bikes are under £1000, 40NM hub bikes are over £1000. Have you considered Chinese crank drives?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Crank-drives are not so good in the wind. They only make high torque in the low gears. OP needs something that will give high torque at 15mph to overcome the wind. That limits the choice a bit. The Ezee Torque has about 30% more torque than most (30NM at 15mph) because the motor has a higher speed winding than most and it runs at 20 amps. You need a hub-motor that's wound for about 250 rpm or more. The normal 201 rpm ones will be well-down on torque by 15mph. Some of the cheaper bikes have them, but the bike manufacturer's rarely publish the winding speed. The Cyclamatic has one, and so do the Oxygen bikes, but I'm not sure about the rest.

 

[trex]

Crank-drives are not so good in the wind. They only make high torque in the low gears. OP needs something that will give high torque at 15mph to overcome the wind. That limits the choice a bit. The Ezee Torque has about 30% more torque than most (30NM at 15mph) because the motor has a higher speed winding than most and it runs at 20 amps. You need a hub-motor that's wound for about 250 rpm or more. The normal 201 rpm ones will be well-down on torque by 15mph. Some of the cheaper bikes have them, but the bike manufacturer's rarely publish the winding speed. The Cyclamatic has one, and so do the Oxygen bikes, but I'm not sure about the rest.

It depends how much is the human input.
The OP is a fit cyclist, if he only wants to ride at around legal speed (15mph) with strong headwinds (say 10mph like in the last few days), he can probably input 5-10NM at would only need around 20NM, crank drives can do that and offer longer range.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It depends how much is the human input.
The OP is a fit cyclist, if he only wants to ride at around legal speed (15mph) with strong headwinds (say 10mph like in the last few days), he can probably input 5-10NM at would only need around 20NM, crank drives can do that and offer longer range.

The Bosch is one of the strongest crank drives. I've seen a figure of 50Nm max at the crank. That would be with the motor at low RPM. The torque curve on a DC brushless motor is more or less a straight line from max at stall to zero at max rpm - perhaps a little more than half the torque at half rpm, so we could deduce that the Bosch motor would make about 30NM at normal rpm if we're generous. At the back-wheel in top gear at 15 mph, the torque would be about a third of that because of the gearing, i.e. 10NM. Now you can see the difference from the Ezee motor, which makes its 30nM torque directly at the wheel. Your only option on the crank-drive would be to change down to get more torque, and you'd have to be in bottom gear to get as much torque as the Ezee, and probably 2nd or 3rd to compete with your average 250w Bafang hub--motor.

You can't get any extra range out of a crank-motor at constant speed other than by pedalling harder or going slower. At 15mph, the Ezee motor is right at its optimum efficiency.
You can see it here by selecting Ezee V2 from the drop-down.
ebikes.ca Hub Motor and Ebike Simulator

 

[trex]

ebikes.ca Hub Motor and Ebike Simulator gives the eZee_V2 26"/700C with ATO 20A controller about 27NM at 25kph (390W output power), input power about 550W. This kind of output power may be a little above the Bosch system but not above the Tonaros which suit the OP budget.
Besides the eZee_V2, there is the 9continent 112 motor: 20N at 251RPM, 18.25A, 36V.
If used on a 48V system, it can match the KTM 650P's performance.
If you take into account other scenarios (eg hill climbing, exceeding 15mph when encountering little headwinds), crank drives could be a better overall choice than a powerful hub drive.