Looking for something with a bit more 'oomph' :)

Andrew harvey

Pedelecer
Jun 13, 2008
188
0
Wyre Forest
www.smiths-cycles.com
Crstalyte do make a compromise motor, that has torque and speed, if your ordering one go for the 408. I ran one for years 20+ top speed and anought torque to pull me and a, U plus 2, with two small children up a 1 in 12,you don't need the 35 amp controller if your at all fit, they just eat away at your batteries. The standard 20 amp controller should be good enough.
I used to import a few direct, but have only the 409 and 4011's left. To get the sort of speed you might be looking for, say around the 20mph mark you would need to run the 409's at 48v, no problem with the old analogue controller, which had 50v rated circuitry. If your interested in I could sort you out a kit of bits, motor, controller and throttle at cost as I was going to put them on E bay. I'll have to dig around in my stores to see exactly which motors are in rear wheel format though.
I also have some 250 watt Bionx kits to get rid of, there not as powerful as the 350w and being Euro legal road sets they don't have throttles just pedal sensors, but I can manage 1 in 7's with them with ease, at I may say a bargain price.
There is in my experience nothing to gain by going to rear wheel drive, of road there's always the compromise between traction at the rear wheel and grip for the front to steer. You have to balance your weight at the right point to do both jobs. I've spent a few hours of road on both types of hub motor without problem, recent experience in the snow shows just hw well two wheel drive works and how easy it is to pull yourself along when it gets very slippy without pedalling.
 

Memran

Pedelecer
Jan 13, 2010
39
0
Andrew:
I'm very interested!
Even if they may not be what I am looking for long-term, as an experiment it could be very worthwhile to get a feel for what these things can do.

Thanks
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
Andrew:
I'm very interested!
Even if they may not be what I am looking for long-term, as an experiment it could be very worthwhile to get a feel for what these things can do.

Thanks
I'm guessing you don't want much speed as it's the slow uphills you want help on, a 250W motor could make a big difference.
 

Memran

Pedelecer
Jan 13, 2010
39
0
Maybe I'm asking too much, but I do want some speed as well :)
If I can get 20mph over the bumpy stuff, I'll be pretty happy with that.
 

daniel.weck

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 8, 2009
1,229
2
Last edited:

Memran

Pedelecer
Jan 13, 2010
39
0
Oh I do realise that the more power the motor uses, the shorter the running time will be for a given battery, but don't really know how about battery sizes, weights and costs.

If I can get a 10 mile range over off-road, bumpy, hilly terrain I would be pretty happy.
On the other hand, maybe with the added speed and ease of riding, I'll might end up wanting to extend that.

Regarding battery mounting, I do like the BionX style and also the Crystalite ones, which appear to use the drinks bottle bosses. The Crystalite ones appear to be a fair bit cheaper too.

The crystalite 350w kit looks to be well suited to me, and it all looks good when mounted. (Check out the 2nd picture in the 'click to enlarge' bit)
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
How is all the extra weight going to affect the downhill handling of the bike? 13Kg is quite a lot more I would have thought?
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
I don't think it's been mentioned yet but having a rear hub or chain drive restricts the number and range of gears that you can have, I find the seven speed freewheel my Wisper is restricted to isn't really enough for my road riding. I'm hoping the Alfine hub will fix that.
10 miles over rough ground at speed and mainly uphill is going to need a battery somewhere in the region of 5Kg and £600. That's a rough guess as it's not an exact science by a long shot, but if that seems a bit much then you need to review your plans. If you bring down the speed and increase your effort then the battery gets smaller quickly.
 

john

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2007
531
0
Manchester
If I can get a 10 mile range over off-road, bumpy, hilly terrain I would be pretty happy.
On the other hand, maybe with the added speed and ease of riding, I'll might end up wanting to extend that.
The crystalyte 36v 9Ah should be fine for 10 miles over rough ground (if not all uphill). Slogging through mud would be a different matter.
 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
You need to think about what speed you are planning on doing.

The Crystalite 400 series are direct drive, and they don't start to get efficient until you are doing more than about 15 mph - obviously it depends on wheel size, but I'm assuming you're likely to be on 26".

To do 15 mph+ off road and/or uphill will take quite some power.

If the likely operating speed is lower, then a geared hub motor would be better, such as the eZee kit.

Nick
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
The link to BionX distributor I put in earlier post has the 250 watt kits in stock for 1100 euro (£956 at todays ex rate) I have emailed them re availability of 350 watt kit.

as these are Euro kits no throttle I guess.......would a thumb throttle be easy to fit? I guess a throttle could be had from Canada?
 

Memran

Pedelecer
Jan 13, 2010
39
0
Its interesting that I started this thread asking about 1000w motors, and now, from your advice, seem to be thinking that 350w is actually better for me because of range, price, weight and kit type! :)

After weighing up the options, BionX and Crystalyte are still top for me, however given that the 350w Crystalyte kit is 2/3 the price of the BionX, and has similar fitting characteristics, (battery mount etc) and is european, its may well be sneaking ahead!

Does anyone know if a 409 motor can take both a disk brake and a 9 speed freewheel at the same time?

I can't find a 409 on that simulator linked previously, only the 408. Are these two motors very similar?
 

john

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2007
531
0
Manchester
Does anyone know if a 409 motor can take both a disk brake and a 9 speed freewheel at the same time?
It will take up to 7 speed. For 8 speed you may need to spread the frame a little and also use a spacer. I doubt if 9 speed is possible.
I think you can use the disk at the same time but am not 100% sure. If you email ebikes.ca, they will know.

I can't find a 409 on that simulator linked previously, only the 408. Are these two motors very similar?
ebikes.ca always called the brushed motor 409. They never sold the brushless 409 so it it not on the simulator.
 

Mussels

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 17, 2008
3,207
8
Crowborough
Its interesting that I started this thread asking about 1000w motors, and now, from your advice, seem to be thinking that 350w is actually better for me because of range, price, weight and kit type! :)

After weighing up the options, BionX and Crystalyte are still top for me, however given that the 350w Crystalyte kit is 2/3 the price of the BionX, and has similar fitting characteristics, (battery mount etc) and is european, its may well be sneaking ahead!

Does anyone know if a 409 motor can take both a disk brake and a 9 speed freewheel at the same time?

I can't find a 409 on that simulator linked previously, only the 408. Are these two motors very similar?
A 1000W motor makes it legally an unregistered motorbike, if you use that at a MTB centre someone will get upset. If the police get involved and see you are riding an unregistered and uninsured motorbike in a public place that motorbikes aren't allowed then you'll quite likely be seeing the magistrate. A 250W ebike is different legally and people can report you all they want but you won't need a brief, they are less likely to report you anyway. If you get a 350W motor just make sure that isn't written on it and you'll probably be fine, lots of people bend the rules a little bit.
Remember rear hubs take freewheels and not cassettes, I think the max number of gears on a freewheel is 7.
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
Having just seen the BionX install vid in another thread I'd question the viability of the Bionx battery mounting for off road use, it just doesn't seem that well secured for off road use...
 

john

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 1, 2007
531
0
Manchester
Having just seen the BionX install vid in another thread I'd question the viability of the Bionx battery mounting for off road use, it just doesn't seem that well secured for off road use...
I use a Crystalyte case for my battery (not the latest version) and very similar to BionX. It is mounted using two screws where the bottle is normally attached.

If I was throwing the bike around off-road I think I would want to add to the mounting to make it more secure.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Gaffa tape
 

Memran

Pedelecer
Jan 13, 2010
39
0
I have emailed Crystalyte-Europe, to find out whether the 409 motor can take a 9 speed freewheel, and a disk brake at the same time. They say it can! :D

Something I forgot to ask about was the battery mounting, using the bike's bottle bosses. My frame is not a standard diamond frame.

Here are some pictures. Hopefully you can give me some idea whether the battery box can still be fitted. It needs to go underneath the down-tube because thats where the water bottle can be fitted, and it looks pretty tight to me!

Side View
Angle View
Bottom View
Another Bottom View

From their website:
The battery
Picture of the kit fitted to normal mountain bike

Sorry for fuzziness of first pic!

I have also sent these four pictures to Crystalyte for their opinion.

Thanks again,
Rob