Looking for something with a bit more 'oomph' :)

[Memran]

Hello all

I'm new to all this electric bike stuff, and as yet, don't own one.

For me, adding some additional power is not about getting around, or being able to get up hills. I'm a mountain biker, and my level of fitness is actually quite good, but I just want more speed and more options when I'm out on the trails.

You see, most of the time off road, the only speed you get is when going down hill. I'm hoping that with a good electric kit on my mountain bike I'll be able to get the same 'buzz' as a I do when going down fast, on the way up too!

So far my research has led me to kits supplied by electricmountainbikes.com (for obvious reasons), and after chatting with Steve, we selected what was probably the best he had to offer: Heinzmann 500w rear wheel kit, which offers 20-ish mph speeds.

A few problems for me are that since this is my first venture into electric bikes, spending almost £1500 on a kit, and not even knowing if it will meet my expectations, is a bit extreme! I've also read that the steel gears inside the Heinzmann make for a noisy ride.

I also found the Cyclone kits which drive through the bike's gears. At first this seemed really appealing as I could keep my brakes and wheels, but the I'm certain that the extra long bottom bracket axle could not possibly hold up to the off-road abuse it will get. The rest of the mounting kit also looks pretty shoddy, and unlikely to hold firm over the bumps.

After reading this forum, I came accross alienbikes.co.uk, and had a browse through the website. They seem to be offering more powerful kits (1000w! ) for lots less money, however they all seem to be front wheel kits.

I really do want to be rear wheel driven, since when I'm out on the trail, I tend to push through the corners quite aggressively, and really don't think the front spinning out would be good at all! Not only that, I have powerful hydraulic disk brakes on my bike. I am not prepared to lose the front one by fitting a hub motor which had no means of mounting a disk. Sacrificing the rear disk for a hub motor would be an acceptible compromise however.

I've emailed Alien about supplying a rear motor, but as yet no reply, so I'm hoping that you knowledgable folks on here could offer some suggestions. Right now, I'm not sure how to proceed.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Mussels]

I'm in the opposite position, I have a mountain bike style ebike with rear hub and want to ride mountain trails. At the moment I don't think an ebike could stand up to much more than a firebreak type ride, the extra weight coupled with more fragile parts will be a problem.
You'll be better off picking a MTB site with lifts to the top.

 

[AndyOfTheSouth]

One specific point about the Heinzmann motors. The most powerful ones do have steel gears and they are noisy, but they also offer ones with nylon gears which are rather less so. They are also pretty powerful though! (41 NM torque vs 50 NM for the steel geared, or something of that order.)

 

[eddieo]

I would go for a quality of road bike and fit a 350 watt BionX kit (rear motor, which is flattish so I think it takes a disc brake)

2nd pic same kit on Montague folder

 

[daniel.weck]

Don't be fooled by the big numbers: a 1000W hub motor is nearly always gear-less (aka direct-drive), which is not ideal for climbing serious hills. A motor that drives the crank/chainring means that the power goes through the bike's own gearing system, so this may better match your requirements. I suggest that you talk to the folks at Endless-Sphere Endless-sphere.com • Index page, as people there are likely to know more about the available options (lots of high-power DIY applications on their forum).
Let us know how it goes ! Cheers, Dan

 

[matt-derby]

electric mountain bikes

electric mountain bikes, electric bicycle, electric bike kits, folding bicycles

you have to wear a weighty back pack but it's one of the best solutions around for electric mountain biking. I hear the crank drive panasonic would be most suited, however i would worry about the battery coming loose on the bumps.

At Presteigne there is a hilly section through the trees, very steep with tree rootts etc. to simulate off road. If you get the chance to attend give it a try. Steve Punchard is often there exhibiting and is very friendly and helpful.

I tried both variants last year, the single rear drive and 2 wheel drive, the later being pretty heavy though.

good luck!

 

[john]

Have you looked at the Crystalyte motors? They are powerfull and flexible but not expensive. They do a rear version with disk brake. Look at www.ebikes.ca Homepage of the revolution or Crystalyte Europe.

 

[Fecn]

I hear the crank drive panasonic would be most suited, however i would worry about the battery coming loose on the bumps.

At Presteigne there is a hilly section through the trees, very steep with tree rootts etc. to simulate off road. If you get the chance to attend give it a try. Steve Punchard is often there exhibiting and is very friendly and helpful.

Back when I was growing up back in the 1980s, my mum used to ride a real old boneshaker of a bike which used to belong to her mum before her. It had 28" wheels, rod-brakes and a wicker basket at the front and was probably made in the 40s or 50s.. On saturdays, she used to take me swimming about 4 miles from our home, and part of the route was a mile through the woods avoiding the odd rock or two and a few tree roots. Her old 1940s boneshaker made it no problem.

My crank-drive Kalkhoff says 'All-Rounder' on the side of it, and having seen what my mum's old boneshaker could do, I've always taken my Kalkhoff at it's word. My figuring was that hitting a small rock in some mud at 5mph will do far less damage to a bike than hitting a pothole in a tarmac road at 20mph. I've ridden it absolutely everywhere on all kinds of rutted surfaces and bouldered trails and it's never displayed any kind of problem whatsoever. In the time I've had the bike, I have explored every bridleway, trail, track and path within a 10-mile radius of my house. Nothing whatsoever has ever gone wrong because of the trails. The battery doesn't rattle, and nothing has ever fallen off (although one of the screws in the rear rack worked it's way loose once and I had to tighten it up again). The only real problem I get is that the V-brakes clog up with mud and leaves after a while and I have to poke it all out with a stick before I carry on.

Having said all of that, I am always fairly gentle with it though and don't treat it like it's a BMX doing jumps and stunts or anything like that. I just take things easy and meander along at a few MPH when the surface gets too bad. The Agattu has a big chunky frame and nice looking welds. It's not the perfect bike for off-road use by any means (I want full suspension and disk brakes whenever I get my next bike), but I don't see any reason to not to enjoy a little bit of mud and rocks once in a while.

 

[Mussels]

Having said all of that, I am always fairly gentle with it though and don't treat it like it's a BMX doing jumps and stunts or anything like that. I just take things easy and meander along at a few MPH when the surface gets too bad. The Agattu has a big chunky frame and nice looking welds. It's not the perfect bike for off-road use by any means (I want full suspension and disk brakes whenever I get my next bike), but I don't see any reason to not to enjoy a little bit of mud and rocks once in a while.

As memran thinks a longer bottom bracket won't stand the abuse then I think he rides a bit harder, mountain bike runs can be fast with hard knocks and I can't see an electric bike coping will with regular hard use.
The longer BB is one of the few things I haven't broken yet!

 

[monster]

i would look at crystalyte motors they are my favourite. there are few moving parts and they are fairly reliable simple and easy to fix. the 400 series is better than the X5 which is too heavy (i have both). get a 35 amp controller.

for trail riding fun you probably want the bike to be as light as possible so i would go for very high discharge batteries. A123 or LiPo packs. power tool lithium packs are a good place to start. only get batteries with a minimum of 4C continuous discharge rate. thats very important.

i don't like the chain drive stuff, it's too difficult to get right.

 

[Memran]

Thanks for your comments so far

The bionx does look pretty nice, however according to their website, the higher powered ones are not available in the UK.

Those crystalite kits look good too, in particular the 350w for its torque or the 500w for the speed. (Why can't they do a 500w version with the gearing enabling similar torque to the 350w but with greater top end speed?)

Regarding the durability of the parts and the extra long BB axles, I have bent standard length square taper axles in the past during some of the competitions I used to do. The terrain can get very severe, including big jumps and large drops. Fortunately replacements are easy to obtain, but I'm sure the same can't be said for the extra long ones.

Does anyone know a UK retailer for the Bionx and Crystalite kits?

Thanks,
Rob

 

[flecc]

Those crystalite kits look good too, in particular the 350w for its torque or the 500w for the speed. (Why can't they do a 500w version with the gearing enabling similar torque to the 350w but with greater top end speed?)

They don't have internal gearing Rob, the Crystalyte motors are direct drive.

Sorry I don't know the current UK outlets, but some have bought the 350 watt BionX direct from Canada. This whole thread could be a useful read for you:

BionX in the UK
.

 

[daniel.weck]

Does anyone know a UK retailer for the Bionx

I don't. Do you speak french or german ?

Where To Buy - BionX - Intelligent Mobility Systems

 

[AndyOfTheSouth]

Bionx is listed at ElectricMountainBikes.com: Bionx electric conversion kit

Doesn't Steve Punchard still offer them?

 

[Scatty]

They aint cheap for a ni-mh battery
Is the paratrooper the ugliest electric mountain bike out there??

 

[Artstu]

crystalyte from here

Crystalyte Europe :: Motors :: 209 brushless only motor (Folding bike)

 

[eddieo]

Most order BionX direct from Canada I believe. Matra of France do the kits so have a look on their site and then at their agents. but they may not do the more powerful motors just the 250 watt

here is one french agent, email or call them re 350 watt

Google Translate

and a bit of fun

YouTube - Electric bicycle Bionx vidéo promotionel.

Matra I step force (BionX)

Fiche technique VELOS ELECTRIQUES MATRA SPORTS I-STEP FORCE en vente chez DM SERVICES

 

[Memran]

Oh I didn't realise that both the Bionx and Crystalite were brushless and gearless. Am I right in thinking that that makes them just about as quiet as an ebike can be? (I large plus in my opinion)

I notice that the Bionx motors are very narrow and can take a disk brake and a 9 speed freewheel! This is a major plus for me.
The regenerative braking is a nice bonus too.

On the other hand, Bionx kits are quite expensive, and not so easy to get in the UK, especially the 350W version.

Despite the price, Bionx seems to be leading the way for me.

 

[flecc]

They are quiet Memran, especially the BionX which is a very refined system. Although very expensive, it's quality, reliability and sophistication easily justifies the expenditure.
.

 

[john]

Those crystalite kits look good too, in particular the 350w for its torque or the 500w for the speed. (Why can't they do a 500w version with the gearing enabling similar torque to the 350w but with greater top end speed?)

All of the crystalyte 400 series motors can handle well over 500W. You just have to choose the winding count to suit your needs (max speed at given battery voltage) and the controller you want to use (generally down to the torque you want to get and the current that the battery can supply).

Use this link to find out what performance you can expect: ebikes.ca Hub Motor Simulator