Looking for more torque

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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www.kudoscycles.com
"the guy riding the bike is a keen amateur cyclist so he should be able to maintain the speed up the hill to reveal max operating torque of the BPM motor."

Not trying to sneak an undercover Lycra in by any chance? ;)
Not fair! The guy riding the bike is Paul,he is a Kudos/Rally Design employee-many on this forum will know Paul well from the Kudos Roadshows,he happens to be a keen amateur cycling rider but no Wiggo!!!
However,he will be on a strict training the night before in the bars of Bristol-taking on plenty of liquid power!!!!
KudosDave
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
Good question! There's always a catch. To get 60NM at the back wheel, you'll be in first gear going very slowly. You'll see the Tornado and Arriba annihilate the Ibex up Park Street at next month's Bristol show.
I am not convinced that the Ibex would lose out to the Tornado on hills. It'll depend on how steep the hill is.

According to the 8-Fun 36V chart that shemozzle posted yesterday http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/14590-8fun-crank-drive-kit-13.html#post182146, the most you'd get at the rear wheel is 53.5NM, assuming 26" wheel, 44 front teeth, 28 rear teeth first gear but you'd be riding at 10.5kph.

According to the 8-Fun BPM chart at File:Geared vs direct.jpg - Endless Sphere Wiki, you'd get only 45NM from the hub motor at the same speed. At 53.5NM, you'd get 4kph.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

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When you try them you'll see the difference: Chalk and cheese!
If it's so steep that your Tornado stalls out, you can always jump off and push it, You'd still beat the Ibex.
 
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hoppy

Member
May 25, 2010
330
50
Park Street is only about 1 in 12.Some of us are interested in riding up 1in 4.If you want to keep legal you need drive through low gears and preferably a throttle.The current Tonaro claims 128nm. My old one with only 90nm easily goes up 1in 4 with very light pedalling.I'd love to see d8veh overtake me pushing a Tornado!
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Park Street is only about 1 in 12.Some of us are interested in riding up 1in 4.If you want to keep legal you need drive through low gears and preferably a throttle.The current Tonaro claims 128nm. My old one with only 90nm easily goes up 1in 4 with very light pedalling.I'd love to see d8veh overtake me pushing a Tornado!
What's a Tonaro got to do with it. We're talking about the difference between the Kudos Ibex and Tornado.
 

hoppy

Member
May 25, 2010
330
50
No,no! The OP asked about torque and hill climbing.I do know the difference between a Tonaro and a Tornado!
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
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Park Street is only about 1 in 12.
Does that mean about 8% ? That should be within most bikes and riders' capabilities ? Any Bosch or Impulse crank drive bike should really fly up there even more so with a little bit of wellie and a higher gear. It's interesting that the Ibex is getting reports of being good at assisting but only at such a slow speed. Have to admit I am very confused !

Still find all these torque figures confusing. I'd estimate newest incarnation of Impulse would assist to 15mph on an 8% with a rider being prepared to 'go for it' a bit (without killing themselves trying !). On a 1:4 or 1:5 it should be a good 7.5-8.5mph with 'relaxed flat riding' pedal force and 8-10mph with geared effort.

I also saw some wild claims on Aseako's website about hub motors in a comparative sense...

Central Drive System | ASEAKO Electric Bike

... but I note there is nothing said about sustainable speed when climbing, which may not matter to some people but matters a lot to me. Not sure where this fits in for the OP. It's one thing to be able to get assistance climbing but if you're doing 4mph it does beg the question whether you may as well be off the bike pushing it !

I can say with 1st hand experience a 500W CST hub motor is quite capable of assisting a totally sweat-free climb (light pedalling in a higher gear) on a 1:5 (20%) slope at a very decent pace. That's in the 10+mph range. I found a bike from linked range needed considerable effort on what can't have been more than a 12%, and was relatively slow even on that. So whatever statistics or claims are made about torque, if you want to climb hills on bikes the only way to see what does it for you to deliver torque in the way you want it for your riding (and at the speed you want to climb at) is to get on one and try for yourself. Other factors seem to affect what a bike delivers, how and when on a steep hill.

May be wrong but I suspect the controllers have a lot to do with it in many cases.
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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Park Street hill is not particularly steep, only a small section is 1 in 8, the rest is about 1 in 12, so manageable to all ordinary ebikes. Both the Ibex, the Tornado/Arriba should be able to climb that hill on throttle alone.
However, the OP wanted 60NM at the rear wheel, that should get him up 1/4 hills. Neither the BPM nor the Ibex can quite deliver 60NM at realistic speed but between 45NM to 53NM, the Ibex should beat the Tornado/Arriba on speed because (if the TCM motor is about as powerful as the 8-Fun crank drive for which shemozzle has published the chart), the crank motor should be able to draw more power and is also more efficient than the BPM at that range of torque and speed.
 
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D

Deleted member 4366

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Trex. You need to have a go on these bikes, then you'll know the difference - like those of us that's already done so.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2
 

jackhandy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 20, 2012
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the Cornish Alps
Trex. You need to have a go on these bikes, then you'll know the difference - like those of us that's already done so.

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Has the one-and-only Ibex in the uk turned up again, then?

If so, we'd all like a go so we'll all know whether it's going to be worth waiting until July for the production machines to arrive.

I, for one, can't make up my mind whether it's worth the drag up to Bristol otherwise.
 

billadie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 27, 2010
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Tewkesbury
Not fair! The guy riding the bike is Paul,he is a Kudos/Rally Design employee-many on this forum will know Paul well from the Kudos Roadshows,he happens to be a keen amateur cycling rider but no Wiggo!!!
However,he will be on a strict training the night before in the bars of Bristol-taking on plenty of liquid power!!!!
KudosDave

Apologies to Paul. A real Lycra would be training in the chemists the night before. :rolleyes:
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Has the one-and-only Ibex in the uk turned up again, then?

If so, we'd all like a go so we'll all know whether it's going to be worth waiting until July for the production machines to arrive.

I, for one, can't make up my mind whether it's worth the drag up to Bristol otherwise.
The Woosh Sirocco has the same motor. I put 24 amps through one and it didn't make a huge difference - not enough to compete with the Tornado up Park St.

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hillclimber

Finding my (electric) wheels
Sep 20, 2012
24
2
The new generation of Ebikes have much better climbing ability than yours. In standard form, any of these should be a vast improvement:
BH Emotion Neo
Any Bosch-motored bike
Any bike with 36v Panasonic
Any bike with Kalkhoff impulse
Ezee Torque or Forza with the large motor
Kudos Ariba and Tornado

There's not a lot between them. The crank drives might be better for very steep hills, but the hub-motors are better for medium steep hills.

If you do a software update on a Kalkhoff Impulse, you have the possibility of converting it to a beast, which will trounce the rest - a good man told me.
My quest for more torque has led me to the Tonaro Bighit, which claims an amazing 120NM. Any views,
please?
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Don't take any notice of figures like that. They're pretty meaningless unless you know how and where the torque was measured (if at all). The Tonaro has similar power to any of the other 36v crank-drives, although you can get a bit more by soldering the shunt in the controller, or getting a 44v or 48v battery. The bikes with the powerful hub-motors like the Kudos Tornado and Arriba, some of the Ezee bikes, and the BH Emotion Neos will beat it on medium steep hills, but the Tonaro will win on the steepest. It has more power than the Kudos Ibex and the Woosh CDs.