Looking for a reliable long range bike

[owlo]

I used to love cycling as a kid, but have fallen into driving laziness as I live in Manchester now. Was down staying with my mum in Cambridge for a month and ended up hiring a [normal] bike for the whole time, and thoroughly enjoyed my various 15-25mile outings.

However lack of fitness and being a fatty precludes me from being able to do truly long distances on a standard bike. (I'm fairly strong so handled the shorter rides, but then again Cambridgeshire is pretty flat)

Therefore I'm looking into long range ebikes, for 1. Commuting into university, 2. Doing longer tours. 3. Hopefully doing the entirety of the North Sea Cycle Route ( http://www.northsea-cycle.com/ from Norway to the UK at least) next summer. I realise I'll need a spare battery or two, so take this into account

So, I'm 6'2, and weigh almost 18st/120kg. Got quite a lot of strength for the shorter journeys, so can certainly contribute to the pedaling. An extra 2-3 batteries and gear will easily add another 20kg to that.

There's so many available that I'm confused, but I've generally been looking at the Woosh Sunbear/Bigbears and the Kalkhoff S11's.

Budget isn't the biggest consideration, but if the Sunbear will do the job as well as the Kalkhoff, I'd obviously rather spend less

I'm decent with electronics and stuff (though not so strong mechanically) if a custom made battery is the best option.

Thanks!

 

[soundwave]

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/

have a look at those new 2016 bikes in any time now
or here be cheaper http://www.mhw-bike.com/e-bikes/

 

[RobF]

Carrying three spare batteries plus charger is pushing it a bit weight wise, and, if you buy a Kalkhoff, will cost £2K+ plus the bike.

Spare batteries for a woosh are a lot cheaper, but the bikes are not really designed for crossing countries.

A better approach for your tour would be a quality bike, Kalkhoff or similar, and one spare battery.

This would still give you a range of 100 miles + a day, although you would have two batteries to charge each evening.

A Bosch bike would do the job, particularly one with the new 500wh battery, and a spare.

Bosch are keen on fast recharging, which you might be glad of.

 

[JuicyBike]

Fascinating trip planned! Would love to hear more - and our workshop in New Mills isn't so far from you if there's an electric bike in our range that takes your fancy.
Would be a pleasure to let you try the bikes on some local hills.

 

[SteveRuss]

I'm a Kalkhoff owner with a 17ah battery. If you are planning more than fifty miles a day and require the highest assistance then a second battery is recommended. Buying those batteries from 50 cycles though will cost you a premium whereas Allbatteries will sell you a 468watt battery for £309 delivered (although I can't comment on the quality, the Kalkhoff ones aren't exactly the most reliable themselves as they have sent out quite a few lemons! An issue I hope that has need fixed).

I bought my Pro Connect Alfine 8g pre-owned at around half the price from new. It had done just over a thousands miles and with around 2600miles on in now, it stills feels like a brand new bike. Solid. Powerful motor. Great hub gear system. I can't recommend it enough.. It still under warranty until next April as they come with a two year warranty.

 

[owlo]

Hey guys, thanks for your well thought out responses and apologies for the delayed response.

Since posting the initial post I've done a lot of research and groundwork for this, and decided the logical thing to do is get a bike for now, and prepare a specialist bike for next summer. So for now I'm going to buy a woosh or something similar, and see below for the project!

For those interested in the summer project, I considered two forms of power, namely solar (like guim did with the spare battery) and Hydrogen. We decided that a trailer and solar power was not appropriate for the route I'm taking, so have further researched the Hydrogen option. The bike will be powered by a standard 612Wh battery and motor, and the hydrogen system will be fuelled by a fuel cell and silicide canisters to provide the power. Water will be in a separate bottle, and mixed with the silicide capsules to provide H2 for the fuel cell. This will provide a constant energy flow which when pedalling hard will power the motor and charge the battery, and when on hills etc will be supplemented by the battery power. The weight of the entire system (batteries+fuel cell+capsule+water) is around 5.5kg. An extra battery will come in at around 3kg, and extra capsules will come in at around 600grams. If there is no water source imminent, each capsule will also require about 800 grams of water. Range for 1 battery+ 1 capsule should be 150-200 miles depending on terrain. I also need to lose around 10kg for more optimal range. We're still in the preproduction/concept stage, but things are coming together surprisingly quickly. The other plus side is we should raise over £30,000 for charity with this trip. (If any manufacturer is interested in sponsoring a trip to a full/limited extent or helping with engineering, please do get in touch. We already have computer hardware/software engineers committed so be aware of this) Exciting times, and really enjoying planning and funding it.

Carrying three spare batteries plus charger is pushing it a bit weight wise, and, if you buy a Kalkhoff, will cost £2K+ plus the bike.

Spare batteries for a woosh are a lot cheaper, but the bikes are not really designed for crossing countries.

A better approach for your tour would be a quality bike, Kalkhoff or similar, and one spare battery.

This would still give you a range of 100 miles + a day, although you would have two batteries to charge each evening.

A Bosch bike would do the job, particularly one with the new 500wh battery, and a spare.

Bosch are keen on fast recharging, which you might be glad of.

Really helpful post thanks. Could you give me a link for the Bosch, or is it one of the 'rose' machines you get from googling your signature?

Fascinating trip planned! Would love to hear more - and our workshop in New Mills isn't so far from you if there's an electric bike in our range that takes your fancy.
Would be a pleasure to let you try the bikes on some local hills.

Thanks! I don't want to waste your time, so I'll say at the outset that I'm not going to make a decision on the model to purchase right now/until I have all the data. That said, I'd absolutely love to try out some of your bikes and have a look around the workshop to get a feel for it from a manufacturer perspective! If you are happy for me to do this, let me know and we'll set it up.

I'm a Kalkhoff owner with a 17ah battery. If you are planning more than fifty miles a day and require the highest assistance then a second battery is recommended. Buying those batteries from 50 cycles though will cost you a premium whereas Allbatteries will sell you a 468watt battery for £309 delivered (although I can't comment on the quality, the Kalkhoff ones aren't exactly the most reliable themselves as they have sent out quite a few lemons! An issue I hope that has need fixed).

I bought my Pro Connect Alfine 8g pre-owned at around half the price from new. It had done just over a thousands miles and with around 2600miles on in now, it stills feels like a brand new bike. Solid. Powerful motor. Great hub gear system. I can't recommend it enough.. It still under warranty until next April as they come with a two year warranty.

Thanks for the helpful post

 

[RobF]

When talking about a 'Bosch bike' on here, what we really mean is a bike fitted with the Bosch crank drive motor.

Lots of bike manufacturers use the system which is supplied as original equipment only.

I don't pretend to understand your hydrogen cells, but charging a Bosch bike 'on the fly' is not possible out of the box, and they are famously locked down, making tinkering difficult.

Another problem is the biggest Bosch battery is 500wh.

If you want a bigger battery and a quality bike, Kalkhoff is one of the few options.

I believe the battery on their new Integrale model can be charged on the bike, so it might accept your system more readily.

http://www.50cycles.com/product/6235230110.html

http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/home/home.html

 

[PatH]

This is my touring setup -


Few more items to add, bag on top of the rack, weight doesn't seem to affect performance, as soon as you know it you are at the 15.5mph cut off limit anyway, carrying another battery is something I am considering but I'm planning a couple of shakedown tours first, I get 40 to 50 miles running on max power, much further if I reduce that.

It's very heavy at the back though, so sometimes it even pulls a little wheelie lol.

 

[trex]

@owlo - weight for weight, you can't match the power of Lithium ion batteries at the moment with anything else, other than a sine wave inverter generator and a can of petrol. Spare battery is the way to go. You can simply connect the output of the spare battery to the charging port of the main battery. When you ride, the main battery voltage sags, the spare battery tops it up automatically. You can daisy chain as many spare batteries as you can carry in your paniers. Most current batteries have 10S5P, max capacity is 36V 17AH, they weigh about 3kgs each. Each battery will give you about 80-100 miles range. If you have a bike the the Woosh Krieger, it's very easy to add a Big Bear battery to the luggage rack without losing the bicycle look. With two batteries, you could cover about 150-170 miles a day on a full charge. I rode around Southend earlier this spring with a similar bike, it handles just like a normal trekking e-bike.

 

[JuicyBike]

Thanks! I don't want to waste your time, so I'll say at the outset that I'm not going to make a decision on the model to purchase right now/until I have all the data. That said, I'd absolutely love to try out some of your bikes and have a look around the workshop to get a feel for it from a manufacturer perspective! If you are happy for me to do this, let me know and we'll set it up.

Please do get in touch.
It's never any waste of time for us to meet anyone, and I think we could have other contacts within Manchester that may be able to help. There is also a research group that has recently formed that might be interested in benefitting from data your trip might provide.
I am very busy at the NEC this week, and as a consequence next will be very busy too (then I have a short holiday planned).
So, please do get in contact directly - the workshop is always available for anyone to visit.
Today is the last day at the NEC, which is a great place to demo ride many bikes - but that might be short notice for you.
Best regards

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Owlo,

If it is long range, battery capacity and bike with a strong frame for a big guy that you are looking for an eZee bike with a 21Ah battery would give you that.
The 21Ah eZee battery fits most eZee bikes from the entry level Sprint Primo to the Forza, Torq or Sprint 8 models.

You can check them out here http://cyclezee.com/ezee-e-bikes--pedelecs.html

 

[owlo]

@RobF Thanks, will take that into account. The other thing I noticed is the Bosch chargers are really heavy, so taking 2 adds another 8kg on it's own. 50 cycles don't seem to be the best at responding to emails, so I may just email Kalkhoff and see what they have to say. I don't see any specific technical limitations to charging on the fly, but if there is, it may be easier to just carry a spare that's constantly slowly charging.

@PatH Thanks for sharing your setup. That Sparta actually looks lovely, and it's not a brand I've really looked into or considered before. Added to that it has regenerative braking so would be easy enough to fit a recharge system to it.

@trex As I understand it, the reason batteries are so efficient is scaling. That's to say, a 600Wh battery with charger would weigh around 4kg and possibly take you 100 miles, whilst a hydrogen system of the same output would require 3 components, a fuel cell and cabling, (3.5kg or so), pellets (400g), and around 800grams of water to take you the same distance. The weight of these components is around 4.7kg, which makes it pointless for the average cyclist. (not to mention it's easier to plug in a battery to your mains at home than order silicide capsules). Additionally a hydrogen system is unable to provide the peaks you may need on steep hills, so you'd need a battery too.

However when you consider a longer range and lack of recharging facilities, and assuming you can locally source water every 200 miles or so, I think hydrogen comes into its own, as the only thing you would need to carry with you extra is silicide. I'm hoping to do the trip over a 4 week period, and although that's only 140~ miles a day, there won't always be a power source at the end of the day. I'll stay once a week (or every 1400 miles) with friends/hotel to charge my laptop/cameras/batteries, but that's the extent of it. The other advantage is, I could use it at night off the bike to power lights/phone/whatever.

Plus, it's exciting to develop new stuff, and may help raise media/fundraising awareness and attract sponsorship!

@JuicyBike No problem. I'm probably in Singapore from 12-25th October or so (avoiding a few weeks of uni lectures so I can actually get real work done!) so it'll be after that. Will get in touch, thanks.

@Cyclezee Your 1008Wh batteries are beasts! I didn't see anything about weight/charging/cells though; do you have a technical sheet on them somewhere that I missed?

 

[anotherkiwi]

@owlo You can simply connect the output of the spare battery to the charging port of the main battery. When you ride, the main battery voltage sags, the spare battery tops it up automatically. You can daisy chain as many spare batteries as you can carry in your paniers.

That I had not thought of. I just splice a round charger port plug onto the end of a battery cable? Where can I buy one of those plugs?

 

[Cyclezee]

@Cyclezee Your 1008Wh batteries are beasts! I didn't see anything about weight/charging/cells though; do you have a technical sheet on them somewhere that I missed?

Hi Owlo,

We don't have a data sheet, but I can give the info you requested.

The 21Ah battery weighs 6Kg, with the 4amp charger takes 5 to 6 hours to fully charge, cells are either Sony or Panasonic 18650.

We don't normally stock the eZee 28Ah battery but we have one on order for a customer who already has a 21Ah as well as rear rack mounted 15Ah but wants to go even further.

 

[PatH]

you could cover about 150-170 miles a day

Outrageous claim, you're gonna be ****** trying that on any bike no matter how good, yeah you can do it one time, IF you have put in the training and that takes months, and you need to be seriously hardcore.

Wake up the next day with aching bones and consider another day of personal torture, leave it to the pro's.

 

[Artstu]

Outrageous claim, you're gonna be ****** trying that on any bike no matter how good, yeah you can do it one time,

Steve's doing 220 miles a day give or take

https://www.strava.com/athletes/1419435

 

[EddiePJ]

When I first looked at the route, I thought WoW! Then I sat and thought about it, and it's only impressive if you are either not able-bodied, or were riding it on a conventional pedal bike.
Somehow riding any great distance on a pedelec doesn't have the same impact or kudos. Hate to say it, but it would just feel like cheating.

 

[Tomtomato]

50 cycles don't seem to be the best at responding to emails, so I may just email Kalkhoff and see what they have to say.

I emailed Kalkhoff in May to ask some questions prior to purchasing my bike, and I am still waiting for a response...

 

[owlo]

When I first looked at the route, I thought WoW! Then I sat and thought about it, and it's only impressive if you are either not able-bodied, or were riding it on a conventional pedal bike.
Somehow riding any great distance on a pedelec doesn't have the same impact or kudos. Hate to say it, but it would just feel like cheating.

I completely agree objectively speaking.

However for me, a semi disabled fat couch potato who's not exercised in 10 years, it's still a big trip. And it's a start, not a finish. To do this in 3-4 weeks living in a tent, whilst raising a lot of money for charity and proving a hydrogen system can provide power to disaster zones/powerless areas, is worth it, for me personally. Planning it is exciting, developing the bike is exciting, and it will give me impetus to get fit in preparation.

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Owlo,

Maybe this is what you are looking for, Hydrogen propulsion and generating plant all in one. The bike is a converted eZee Sprint