Looking for a fast road-legal pedelec / bike with pedelec upgrade

[Feanor]

Hi all.

At some point later this year I'm looking to buy a high end bike that'll last me for the next 10+ or however many years. I like to buy well and buy once so, bearing in mind that there are still single speed bikes from the 80s in use, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a good bike bought now to last a similar amount of time.

I hate derailleurs and messy maintenance though so a Rohloff hub is a must for me. Also, although I'm not interested in the crazy heights of the expensive racers where you spend a fortune shaving off a couple of hundred grams, I'm also looking for something that's fast and doesn't compromise too much on top speed. Saying that, though, I'd like to be able to reach that top speed without having to get all sweaty constantly accelerating and braking in the city so a pedelec would also be ideal.

I'm not too keen on many of the complete pedelec bikes I've found on the market though, for several reasons. Firstly, they either seem to be heavy road-legal workhorses or road-illegal crazy machines. Neither are for me - I don't want to break the law but equally I want to still be able to go as fast as a normal non-motorised pushbike; in other words, I want to be able to exceed 25kph without being held back by trying to shift over 25kg of metal. I guess most people that want to cycle fast either get a non-motorised racing bike or do a lot of *ahem* off-roading *ahem* with their high-powered electric bikes; maybe there's just not enough of a market for what I'm after yet.

Secondly, I'm unconvinced that a pre-assembled pedelec would be serviceable for over 10 years - the electronics, particularly the battery, will surely go out of date and won't be replaceable. And thirdly I'm not convinced by the quality or value of the pre-assembled pedelecs. They seem to be incredibly expensive for what they are.

If there's anything pre-assembled on the market that fits my parameters please let me know, but otherwise I'm considering buying a high-end pushbike and adding an aftermarket pedelec upgrade to it. I'd hope that this'd end up being relatively lightweight, fast, and replaceable at minimum cost in 10 years' time.

For example, a Santos bike with a Rohloff and possibly Belt Drive. Or maybe an Endorphin bike.

If I were to stick something lightweight like the Sunstar S03 on the bike that could work really well. I say could work because I'm kinda worried I'd be spending a lot of money on a bike that's perfectly balanced or whatever and then effectively gaffer-taping a gigantic motor to it and completely spoiling the functionality of the design I've paid for. I'd be better off getting a cheap bike than doing that.

Finally, I'm keen on having my bike fitted specifically for me. In the week I've been researching this I've only come across MSG Bikes who do this and sell Rohloff bikes. I haven't found any ebike sellers who do this.

Anyway, this is a long-term project - I'm not looking at buying a bike at all until later this year and if I go for the pedelec upgrade option I may not add an electric kit to it for some time after that, depending on how I get on without a motor. I'm just playing with ideas at the moment - I'm not even quite sure what type of bike I want (road with fixed forks or mountain with suspension, etc) but that I think would overcomplicate this thread at this stage.

I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

 

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

Hi there,

Why not try one of these -
Leeds Tour - Your Electric Bike Shop in Hampshire

It has 7speed hub gears as you have suggested.
It comes in both cross bar and low step frames.
Comes with the reliable Panasonic crank drive motor.
I actually sell it with a 10year service plan as standard!

I suggest when your free pop in store where you can try one out and we can discuss the options.

Any questions please give me a shout.

Regards
Martin

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Martin,

Feanor is in Rome, not Hampshire. See here http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/introduce-yourself/14017-hello-well-europe-rome-moment.html#post171978.

 

[GaRRy]

Based on your spec you might want to take a look at this.

ElectricMountainBikes.com: Gruber Assist

Not cheap but certainly fits most of your criteria

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Welcome to the forum. Plenty of choice high end bikes generally come with a 2 year guarantee. Although if you look after it and you can accept a slightly smaller range they could last 4 years or more. We have some lightweight bikes with hub gears e.g. KTM, AVE. which come with Bosch motor. All are 25kg or less.

Do not sell add on kits but would admit it can make a nice bike as you get to choose all your kit, several members have done this with great success. My suggestion would be to try plenty of bikes ideally some where a kit has been fitted as well. if you know exactly what you want it will make the decision for you.

Good Luck
DW

 

[Feanor]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone!

Sorry I should've been clearer about my location and requirements. I am in Rome but the language barrier means I'm not sure about buying from here. I have family in the South East of England so can combine a bike purchase with a visit home if the service and ease of communication makes it worthwhile. I mentioned MSG Bikes because I'm am considering visiting them to make a purchase as I'd like to have my bike fitted for me - I wouldn't want to get a bike fitted and have to deal with language confusion.

Regarding 7-speed hub bikes I've seen lots of pedelecs with non-Rohloff hub gearboxes but I really have my heart set on the Rohloff I'm afraid. Although I don't have first-hand experience of good hub gearboxes I just don't see how a 7-speed can compare with a 14-speed for performance. Also, as I said, I like to buy well and buy once and Rohloff are by all accounts pretty much bullet-proof and should outlast all the bike components except the frame. Also that Raleigh doesn't look particularly fast.

Garry - thanks, good suggestion. A few mins of quick googling tho and the Gruber replacement, the Vivax, apparently has an RRP of about €2500 just for the motor and kit!! Ouch. I was thinking of something in the region of £3k for a bike and up to £1k for a pedelec upgrade. But you are right it does seem to fit my specifications perfectly and it looks like it'd be less likely to spoil the balance etc of an expensive frame. I'll check it out in more detail tomorrow.

DW - Thanks, I'll check our KTM & AVE tomorrow, thanks (bedtime now for me!). On the weight front though I'm really aiming for <20kgs - from the research I've done a good Rohloff bike can weight ~10kgs and a lightweight pedelec mod ~5kgs.
When you say the bikes might last 4 years or more, do you mean that the battery and/or motor would need replacing in that time? If so this is exactly my concern with a pre-assembled pedelec - I'd hate to buy an expensive bike and have it die in 4/5/6 years and be unable to find replacement parts for a sensible price. At least with an upgrade kit I'd still have a perfectly serviceable bike and would be able to just replace the pedelec bits if need be.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Probably best with add on kit if you want Rolhoff.

 

[GORDONAL]

Hi Feanor

For £4000 budget you should have a good choice of pedelec. The "expert" bike finder Eddieo unfortunately is no longer with us - his links from past threads have also disappeared . From reading and drooling over many of the entries he made , and this is unverified off the top of my head

AVE - as mentioned
Bulls GreenMover
Haibike
KTM
Homage hybrid
Gepida
Flyer

This list is not the complete picture .... all i can remember for now !
some not all will offer something other than derailleur gears and far more than a 7 speed hub eg 11 speed Alfine ,Nu-Vinci N-360 not just Rohloff .
The "manufactured" pedelecs will feature certain drive systems eg. Panasonic , Bosch, Swiss,BionX etc . mostly chain but some toothed belt drive .
I am optomistic about battery,controllers and electrics in general on the latest bikes .......... no-one could honestly say they would last 10 years without an issue But I would now expect a minimum 5 years life for my useage. Probably the only consumable would be the battery and massive improvements in efficiency over the last few years mean they are lighter and far more reliable .
Customising a bike .......... you could try a dealer like Xipi ( Banbury Frank) who advertise on the forum , they will accomodate anything you want eg you buy your Rohloff bike of choice and they will electrify it

A few have looked at the S03 Sunlova kit and I stand to be corrected not too many sold ..... very attractive looking ad. though!

Enough of my waffling

Alan

 

[Kudoscycles]

Feanor....one aspect of your specification that is contradictory....your battery requirement re life and weight. We use 2 batteries....LifePo4 and LiMn04.....LifePo4 is proving a very long life battery but it is heavy,LiMn04 is much lighter but the life is probably limited to 2-3 years....to my knowledge there is not a longlife and lightweight battery available yet.
As you live in South East England please drop in to our warehouse and you can see these batteries in use to reveal the differences.
With regard to gears,the Rohlhoff has a very wide range but whether this range is needed in practice is questionable,the extra torque of an ebike usually means that only a few gears are needed and the wider steps are no problem.
We have 17 different bike types available for testing that should give a wide flavour of the ebike market.
KudosDave

 

[RobF]

The Rohloff hub is over-specced for an ebike - you don't need so many gears.

But if you must have one:

ROSE Bosch Xeon EL-2 Men at a low price in the online bike shop www.rosebikes.com

The bike is just on 20kg which is about as light as you will get.

No belt drive, but the makers Gates only claim twice the life of a chain and I understand tension and alignment of the belt is critical.

In other words, a belt is not quite the 'fit and forget' solution it appears to be.

Have a word with Rose Bikes anyway, proper high-end manufacturer and they offer custom builds.

 

[KirstinS]

Just something for the mix - for conversion is the On one pompetamine alfine 11 versa

Ok it is not a rolhoff with 14 gears but the 11 has a similar spread and is really very very good. I have an 8 and an 11 speed and have never done a thing in maintainence in 3.5 and 2 years respectively.

Also light enough and fast, British built. Chromo frame, solid and will last and last.

Good for a conversion - get cytronex to do it maybe

You could try an alfine and retrofit the rolhoff if you really wanted to. But I'd be surprised if you do.

 

[GORDONAL]

Just remembered Grace bikes (check out Wispering Dave at Wisper bikes) , i'm sure i read that they either had NuVinci belt drive or Rohloff on certain models that probably could be imported ... price??

Alan

 

[flecc]

Regarding batteries, you will have to regard them as regularly needing replacement. Good quality lithium batteries normally last from 2 to 3 years in e-bike applications, in rare cases with e-bikes that have gentle and protective software, 4 years. However, the lighter types of lithium battery that you need will only take a maximum of 1100 charges, but often more like 500 to 800 before failure. After-market e-parts and kits tend towards the shorter battery lives since they don't have the integrated design protective software of the lowest powered rank drive e-bikes. Another factor is that lithium batteries age whether used or not, even if not used they lose substantial capacity year by year unless stored out-of-use with about one third charge content at zero degrees C, but not frozen.

It all adds up to thinking of fitting a new battery every 2 or 3 years at least, and they are usually only available like-for-like on the better pre-made e-bikes. As kits and loose components, the designs change all the time.

 

[jazper53]

. Another factor is that lithium batteries age whether used or not, even if not used they lose substantial capacity year by year unless stored out-of-use with about one third charge content at zero degrees C, but not frozen.

all the time.

Sounds like the fridge would be a good place to keep the battery in storage with the vegetables if pushed for space

 

[flecc]

Sounds like the fridge would be a good place to keep the battery in storage with the vegetables if pushed for space

To get the fullest protection a fridge temperature isn't usually low enough. They are recommended to be run at 5 degrees C, but very few households achieve that with any consistency since the fridge door gets opened frequently and the compressor units usually are incapable of returning to 5 degrees rapidly enough before the next door opening event! And it only works if the battery is kept in there all the time in long term storage. I mention that since many get the idea that they should pop their battery in the fridge between runs, but that would substantially shorten it's life.

However, I only use my laptop on battery one or at most two times a year when away, so that battery I do keep wrapped in clingfilm in the back of my fridge on the lowest (coldest) shelf. It's around seven years old now and still performs well when defrosted thoroughly and then brought back up to full charge, so life-loss prevention is possible in cold storage.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Just remembered Grace bikes (check out Wispering Dave at Wisper bikes) , i'm sure i read that they either had NuVinci belt drive or Rohloff on certain models that probably could be imported ... price??

Alan

Thanks Alan, yes the MX mountain bike is driven through the NuVinci CVT, we are still considering whether or not to offer the speed version as it is illegal to use on the public roads in the UK. Fully loaded though the 2013 11Ah Bosch 500W version will retail for about £3,300.



Grace Bikes by Wisper In the UK &ROI 2013

All the best

David

 

[GORDONAL]

Have a look at Bosch eBike systems on Google then choose e-bike marken - it gives you all of the bikes in one foul (they are not that bad really) swoop , a really handy site. Sorry i cannot link this.

Alan

 

[GT3]

Rohloff - custom fit

Nobody's mentioned Thorn? Wrong side of the country for your rellies (Bridgewater in Zumerzet), but a Thorn with a couple of bottle batteries and light motor is my ideal and only waiting until I have time to travel down there.

 

[Velospeed]

Hi Feanor

Have you looked at bikes equipped with a NuVinci hub? There are quite a few of these available now, including the moustache range, which might be worth a look. As for replacing batteries, if you go for a reputable brand then they will still have replacements available for the foreseeable future.

Hope you find something that fits the bill.

Regards
John

 

[Feanor]

Thanks again for all your replies everyone, you are a helpful bunch!

Regarding battery replacement, I think I've confused matters by talking about wanting a bike that lasts over 10 years. I'm aware that the electronics and certainly the battery won't last anywhere near that long. The battery is a consumable and I expect the motor and electronics to become difficult/expensive to replace/repair within 5 years. So I'm not concerned about compromising battery longevity if it means a worthwhile weight saving.

(On the subject of putting batteries in fridges, I was the only one to put my work laptop battery in the fridge for the multiple weeks in a row I used my laptop as a desktop in a docking station. My colleagues all laughed at me at the time but I have just heard from my successor who took my laptop over that his battery is one of the few still going; everyone else's batteries, which are exactly the same age, have died.)

Anyway. It's the bike I want to last me, not the motor, battery, electronics etc. I want to get a bike that is top notch and mechanically bullet-proof, which is why if I get a pre-assembled pedelec I'm concerned that I'd find myself with a very good bike that I can't use because I can't fix or replace the electronics. Or am I mistaken?

On hub gears, I'm not too keen on the Nuvinci as it's unclear how much efficiency is lost through it.

Rob - I hear your comment about not needing as many gears as the Rohloff has on a pedelec, but could you clarify? If I want to maximise the torque from my legs and the torque from the motor don't I need to be able to achieve the same cadences as I would from a normal bike? And if I want to still have power above 25kph don't I need to have sufficiently high gears available? From what I've read the Rohloff has a 527% gear spread, an 11 speed Shimano 408% and an 8 speed only 307%. While I realise a pedlec might not need the lowest gear(s) surely that means I'm going to lose some of my top speed with a Shimano hub depending on the size of the front crank?
I appreciate your input on this so please don't misunderstand my questioning - I just want to better understand where you're coming from. Thanks for your suggestion of Rose Bikes too, they look like a highly professional outfit so I will consider them further.

I have looked at Thorn bikes - they do look good. I must say though that I found their brochure confusing. Still, my biological dad lives in Bristol so I could potentially combine a visit to him with a purchase from Thorn. I'm not sure how much they do regarding fitting the bike to the individual though? This was one of my reasons for leaning towards MSG Bikes, as well as a slightly easier-to-get-to location.

Alan - on my "hello" thread in the introductions section you mentioned the Haibike XDURO; that does look like an excellent bike and much lighter than most other pre-assembled options. Does anyone know how it performs above 25kph once the motor cuts out?

Kirstin - I can only find the On One Pompetamine Alfine 8? Not that it matters if I were to retrofit a Rohloff, but either way I can't help but wonder what has been compromised in terms of quality to achieve a price of £600.


Anyway, I think the essay I wrote as my OP has overcomplicated things a bit. So to summarise, simplify & clarify what I'm after:

1) Top pedal-power speed (ie over 25kph, once the motor cuts out) that is comparable to a fully manual pedelec (or am I mistaken that most road legal pedelecs compromise top speed?). To me this means keeping the weight down to 15-20 kgs.

2) A top quality bike frame etc that fits me personally and won't become obsolete just because the electronics & motor have died and can't be replaced with whatever's current in 5-10 or however many years' time. A style of bike (frame/fork/wheels combo) that is fast but reasonably comfortable in all road conditions and won't shatter my spine on cobbles.

3) Ideally a shop that will fit the bike for me (a service like the one provided here). Considering that this service is available for custom pedal-only bikes costing £2-3k, I don't think it's unreasonable to look for this from a pedelec costing £3-4k.