Looking for a decent ebike to buy, on a bit of a 'budget'

[Mr. B Ikeman]

FIrst off, I'll state that the highest I'll go is £1700, maybe £2k if it was an absolute bargain bike down from more than double that.
Though I'd rather stay under 1.5k

Reason I'm looking for an ebike is because I need to build up strength in my legs, I live in a fairly hilly area >20 degree inclines and want to get out to some good cycling spots. Having an electric assist would make it less torturous getting around.

I've been looking at the cyclotricity kits (full frame, 70%) and have been asking about one specific model, their high end full suspension 1500W model (high wattage for off road use), however when I asked for info on assembly (ie do I need to size the chain, will I need to use a chain splitter, does it come with a pre-sized chain and quick link) they just directed me to their PDF, which doesn't cover that. I'd also asked in the same email for a set of specs on the forks, brakes and rear shocks, derailleur and shifters as their site just lists "Air shocks" "Hydraulic brakes" which isn't exactly a heap of information, they never provided that info which makes me feel they're being a bit cagey. Am I wrong?

Cyclotricity seem to be the best I've found since they check two of the main boxes I need them to; throttle and high wattage motors, for use on offroad/private land then the option to set a road legal 250W lockout.

Hub drive seems to be my only option, from my limited knowledge, for an ebike that can do throttle + PAS, even retrofitting a throttle to a mid drive sounds like it may be impossible on higher end motors as the ESC is built into the motor itself, so can't really be changed out to accept a throttle as well as PAS.

If you could give me a list of options I'd have in my budget range that fit the criteria of:
Has throttle + PAS
Can climb inclines of 20-25 degrees
Is a good bike overall, or not absolutely awful

I'd appreciate it. I've been out of cycling for about 8 years now and this is my first foray into ebikes.

Thanks

 

[soundwave]

Bafang BBSHD 1000W 48/52V mid drive electric bike motor conversion kit with DISPLAY 850c or 500c Plus FREE brake sensors or levers – Red Dragon Ebikes

grand will get you motor and batt then just need a donor bike to fit it to and you get to set the pas throttle power settings ect with the software you can download for free.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

You can't have a legal "on road / legal mode and off road high power switch" - they are specifically forbidden in the legislation. The legislation states that the max continuous rated power of the motor must be 250W

In your situation (ie want to do some proper mountain biking and also very steep hills), if you want to stay legal, and have a throttle, I would suggest getting a Tongseng TSDZ8 kit from Woosh (that are the only sellers of the legal 250w rated version ) and fit it (or get someone to fit it) onto a second hand good quality / good condition hardtail or full suspension mtb (loads on marketplace, gumtree and ebay). You will have to decide on the battery size and what I do is make a cardboard cutout of the various battery options and take them when viewing second hand bikes ( remember you need room to slide the battery on and off). The best battery position for mountain biking is on the downtube. Also make sure that the bottom bracket is threaded bsa and also you need to use the TSDZ8 template to check the motor doesn't hit the chainstay (although you can sometimes bend the chainstay to fit !). Sounds more complicated than it is - if in doubt ask here.

Tongsheng TSDZ2 and TSDZ8 CD kits | Chain Drive Electric Bike Kits from Woosh

The TSDZ2 CD kit: we have two models, with and without throttle.

wooshbikes.co.uk

 

[Nealh]

The cyclo tricity kit is illegal , one isn't allowed to have a marked motor rated at more then 250w then restrict it nilly willy.
For 1500w the motor will be rated at least for 500w .

 

[matthewslack]

A legal bike can climb any hill you need to, if it is the right kind of bike and set up with suitable gearing.

Those hills need a mid-drive with a sufficiently low bottom gear. That's all. A 1500W hub 'road legally locked down' to 250W is not going to be happy on those hills, and in 1500W mode is both illegal and will be giving your battery a severe beating.

If you want a suitable bike with a legal throttle then a conversion is I think the only route: the Bafang BBS01 can I think be set so.

Off the shelf mid-drive with throttle? None that I know of, but highest assistance level in lowest gear will get you up with all but the lowest spec mid-drives from Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano.

There are bikes at the top end of your budget using those motors.

 

[RoadieRoger]

As it will be your first foray into Ebikes B Ikeman why are you considering faffing about with Kits ? Why not get one already built ? The amount you are prepared to spend is at the top end of Budget . Better to purchase a cheaper bike , get used to it and then you will have the knowledge , experience and money to make a more informed choice .
Look at the Ebikes on offer from Woosh and Wisper at the £1,000 price point and the cheaper ones starting at £600 from OneSport which are Chinese with UK and European Warehouses . OneSport supply throttles should you want to go off-road and they have some nice Customer Videos testing their machines in the UK . Their batteries will give long range too !

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

As it will be your first foray into Ebikes B Ikeman why are you considering faffing about with Kits ? Why not get one already built ? The amount you are prepared to spend is at the top end of Budget . Better to purchase a cheaper bike , get used to it and then you will have the knowledge , experience and money to make a more informed choice .
Look at the Ebikes on offer from Woosh and Wisper at the £1,000 price point and the cheaper ones starting at £600 from OneSport which are Chinese with UK and European Warehouses . OneSport supply throttles should you want to go off-road and they have some nice Customer Videos testing their machines in the UK . Their batteries will give long range too !

Thanks for recommending alternates.

As for building a kit myself, I've worked on bikes before, both motorcycles and pushbikes. Changed cassettes, chains, derailleurs. Nothing overly difficult like pulling a bottom bracket out which looks a bit more technical, but most of the kits, for hub motors just seem to be a "drop in wheel, fit chain, adjust derailleur, fit magnet disc and hall sensor for PAS"

The rest is mostly electrical work, I'm an E eng, so that isn't really tough work as it's just plugging stuff in/out of the ESC and waterproofing it.

If anything over 250W, even if actively limited isn't road legal, then I guess I'll be riding off road only I live right beside the countryside anyway, not in a huge city like London, so plenty of offroad areas to walk the bike to.

I have seen what looks like a 1500W cyclotricity/bafeng kit on a midrange bike on gumtree for about 500 quid. Bike seems to be in a bit of a sorry state, though I can always go over and take a look and see how it is.

I do have an old hardtail in the house, 2007/8 specialised rockhopper comp though it needs wheels trued/rims replaced, a brake lever replaced, probably a heap of lubrication and some fasteners added, so I could convert that if I had the time to fix the million other issues with it.

 

[sjpt]

If anything over 250W, even if actively limited isn't road legal, then I guess I'll be riding off road only I live right beside the countryside anyway, not in a huge city like London, so plenty of offroad areas to walk the bike to.

Don't forget that if it doesn't satisfy the Pedelec regulations (250w max rated, max 15.5mph assisted) it isn't a pedelec, so counts effectively as a motor scooter. You can't ride it anywhere offroad where there is general public access, eg not bridleways, not canal paths, not cycle paths. Only on private land which does not have public access, and with landowner's permission.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

There are loads of high spec'd good condition donor bikes on facebook. If you have the correct tools, removing the bottom bracket is no more complicated than the other bike maintenance tasks you mentioned - I use the local bike shop as a last resort - they charge £10 to remove a bottom bracket.
There are perfectly legal powerful ebike kits available that will be more than powerful enough for you, don't get put off by the marking - that is certified by the manufacturer for continuous use - most ebikes and ebike kits will generate considerably more power than that going up hills with the assist turned up

 

[thelarkbox]

Imho invest £4-500 on the latest amazon special eu/uk legal ebike of the style you prefer and see how that rides for a start..
IF you find it lacking in any way post in here with a basic generic "bolt on" system its a doddle to 'Plug n play' different controllers/batteries to provide the hub motor with the power sufficient to get you up the hills..
Dont expect a 'free ride' tho you will need to drop into an appropriate gear and push down some on the pedals too;;

But put into perspective my standard basic conversion kit lugs me up the local hill with me sat comfortably pedalling in 2nd or 3rd gear, and at the crest of the hill im still moving at a shade over 8mph, pre conversion i would struggle walking/pushing up that hill especially feeling the extra stretch in the feet tendons.. ..

 

[thelarkbox]

As an E-eng you should appreciate that V x A = Watts and if you apply a 48v battery (max voltage 54v) with a say 17A controller the motor would have close to 1000Watts to expend and as its only the motors continuous rating thats limited by the regs , so such a system is totally legal (if required).. and if even more power is required to scale a vertical face?? 20A, 25A, 30A controllers and more exist, but then with a hub motor you may also want to consider oil cooling the motor too as if under severe load the motor will also be generating heat.

The regs cap the motors continuous rating at 250w, and battery voltage at 48v, NO caps on controller output capacity

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

As an E-eng you should appreciate that V x A = Watts and if you apply a 48v battery (max voltage 54v) with a say 17A controller the motor would have close to 1000Watts to expend and as its only the motors continuous rating thats limited by the regs , so such a system is totally legal (if required).. and if even more power is required to scale a vertical face?? 20A, 25A, 30A controllers and more exist, but then with a hub motor you may also want to consider oil cooling the motor too as if under severe load the motor will also be generating heat.

The regs cap the motors continuous rating at 250w, and battery voltage at 48v, NO caps on controller output capacity

Thanks for further explanation on the regs, I was wondering why there were no 72V kits here. Have seen videos of them in other countries.

However, surely a motor rated for 250W is not going to be at all happy with the additional current being run through the stator windings. You'd need some serious cooling if planning on getting it above 400 watts no doubt, right? Putting a kilowatt into a 250 watt motor would likely cause the stator windings to heat to the point the enamel burns off and they short out extremely quickly, no? Or, at least you'd need to take extreme care with them. Unless I'm mistaken.

Every ebike I've seen on the streets here (delivery drivers) looks to have a throttle and hub motor far too large to be 250W if I'm in the town centre. I'm wondering if it's a law that's not really enforced here, like when I was a teenager and took my dirtbike to public trails along with everyone else and I still see teenagers and adults (adults usually go with trials bikes and I know a few trials bikers) on their bikes driving out to those trails. Same places some of my family members ride their horses, horses which I'm sure output more than 250 watts and know are significantly more dangerous than riding a bike.

Bit of a tangent, though it doesn't look like it's something that's heavily enforced here, if people doing delivery work are riding with what look like 1000+ watt hub motors and dirt bikes are effectively allowed on public trails so long as you behave yourself.
Even when I was a teenager and (slowly) driving my dirtbike to a trail (which was public land) I got pulled over. Got asked to get off and push the bike to the trail. This was a while ago though.

Regarding the bike I've seen on Gumtree, it's in a bit of a state looking at the pics, though I might be able to pick it up for about £400, can then see about fitting it to my old Rockhopper as a donor kit. I've messaged and asked if I can take a look tomorrow, anything to look out for in specific regarding the battery and motor?
Don't think this one comes with PAS. Pic related.

 

[matthewslack]

The other part of the regs is the assistance speed limit of 25km/h. This 'rescues' motors that are being run with controllers of higher current capability because below 25km/h in the sort of riding most of us do, most of the time power required is less than 250W, so the extra amps are not delivered much of the time.

If you plan to break that rule too, then you are beginning to ask for trouble. More and more enforcement is based on a maximum assistance speed check.

Many motors rated and stamped as 250W under the EN15194 standard are capable of sustained power output of quite a bit more, and the regs as presently interpreted and enforced only care about that marking and rating rather than the real world capability of the motor. So a legal motor is not as limiting as you might think!

 

[saneagle]

FIrst off, I'll state that the highest I'll go is £1700, maybe £2k if it was an absolute bargain bike down from more than double that.
Though I'd rather stay under 1.5k

Reason I'm looking for an ebike is because I need to build up strength in my legs, I live in a fairly hilly area >20 degree inclines and want to get out to some good cycling spots. Having an electric assist would make it less torturous getting around.

I've been looking at the cyclotricity kits (full frame, 70%) and have been asking about one specific model, their high end full suspension 1500W model (high wattage for off road use), however when I asked for info on assembly (ie do I need to size the chain, will I need to use a chain splitter, does it come with a pre-sized chain and quick link) they just directed me to their PDF, which doesn't cover that. I'd also asked in the same email for a set of specs on the forks, brakes and rear shocks, derailleur and shifters as their site just lists "Air shocks" "Hydraulic brakes" which isn't exactly a heap of information, they never provided that info which makes me feel they're being a bit cagey. Am I wrong?

Cyclotricity seem to be the best I've found since they check two of the main boxes I need them to; throttle and high wattage motors, for use on offroad/private land then the option to set a road legal 250W lockout.

Hub drive seems to be my only option, from my limited knowledge, for an ebike that can do throttle + PAS, even retrofitting a throttle to a mid drive sounds like it may be impossible on higher end motors as the ESC is built into the motor itself, so can't really be changed out to accept a throttle as well as PAS.

If you could give me a list of options I'd have in my budget range that fit the criteria of:
Has throttle + PAS
Can climb inclines of 20-25 degrees
Is a good bike overall, or not absolutely awful

I'd appreciate it. I've been out of cycling for about 8 years now and this is my first foray into ebikes.

Thanks

Cyclotricity 1500 kit is good for maintaining 25 to 30 mph on the road. It would be inefficient if used off-road and lacking in torque. If you really want an electric motorbike for the road in the hope that you won't get caught, just tell us, and we can give appropriate advice. If you want a bike for off-road use, you're barking up the wrong tree with the Cyclotricity 1500w one.

As long as you're happy with the 25km/hr max assist speed, there are several legal options that would give you what you want. Twist-and-go throttles are illegal, but, again, there are legal ways to get power without putting in much effort.

 

[RogerA]

Are you sure your riding will be on hills >20 degrees? That's a1:3 hill. I don't think there's much on road in the UK that is that steep. If you are looking for on road riding then I think any legal 250W bike should be sufficient. I have a36v 250W rated motor with a very standard 15A peak controller, and that easily gets me up 15% gradients. You really don't need a1500W illegal motor unless you are planning on very serious off road climbing.

 

[Nealh]

Thanks for recommending alternates.

but most of the kits, for hub motors just seem to be a "drop in wheel, fit chain, adjust derailleur, fit magnet disc and hall sensor for PAS"

Dropping in a wheel is far from the truth. All std push bikes use a 9mm drop out , most kits use a 12mm axle and the larger type motor power kit you mention will use a 14mm axle.
One has to in nearly most cases has to modify the drop out to accept a larger axle , often many think as you have said and the hub will simply spin out damaging the motor cable/shorting the hub and likely the controller.

If you are lucky you may escape with out injury.

Both rear drop outs will need careful filing deeper by 2 - 4 mm for a hub axle to sit and seat correctly.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Are you sure your riding will be on hills >20 degrees? That's a1:3 hill. I don't think there's much on road in the UK that is that steep. If you are looking for on road riding then I think any legal 250W bike should be sufficient. I have a36v 250W rated motor with a very standard 15A peak controller, and that easily gets me up 15% gradients. You really don't need a1500W illegal motor unless you are planning on very serious off road climbing.

I've calculated the grade myself, they start at around 16 degrees up to 25 at the steepest.
I live near a lot of mountainous terrain. Not super high mountains, but mountains.
Some of the hills are steep enough that I had no problem keeping up with and overtaking cars on them when I used to cycle. No electricity, just highest gear and a little pedalling.
Of course I made sure I was safe, lights, high vos jacket and gloves (for signalling to turn) and a helmet.

Dropping in a wheel is far from the truth. All std push bikes use a 9mm drop out , most kits use a 12mm axle and the larger type motor power kit you mention will use a 14mm axle.
One has to in nearly most cases has to modify the drop out to accept a larger axle , often many think as you have said and the hub will simply spin out damaging the motor cable/shorting the hub and likely the controller.

If you are lucky you may escape with out injury.

Both rear drop outs will need careful filing deeper by 2 - 4 mm for a hub axle to sit and seat correctly.

Thanks for the correction. Just measured the rear dropouts on my bike are 10mm wide, 11.5mm deep. Depth measurement may be off as I didn't want to take the back wheel off entirely and use the depth gauge on my calipers, so I used a clear piece of plastic and marked with a sharpie. Then measured that using the step gauge.

I imagine this would require marking the required size, filing down (or using a drill bit with course sandpaper taped on, though I'd rather use a round file, more precise and aluminium is easy enough to file with tool steel) and adding a torque arm to make up for structural losses due to filing off a couple of mm?

Though how would a 14mm shaft fit into dropouts too small for it? I'd imagine it wouldn't fit at all, right?

Cyclotricity 1500 kit is good for maintaining 25 to 30 mph on the road. It would be inefficient if used off-road and lacking in torque. If you really want an electric motorbike for the road in the hope that you won't get caught, just tell us, and we can give appropriate advice. If you want a bike for off-road use, you're barking up the wrong tree with the Cyclotricity 1500w one.


As long as you're happy with the 25km/hr max assist speed, there are several legal options that would give you what you want. Twist-and-go throttles are illegal, but, again, there are legal ways to get power without putting in much effort.

I wouldn't want "An electric motorbike for the road" as you put it. However I won't be taking this on anything but the simplest dirt trails, either a downhill area (and not a difficult one) that can be accessed by road and then I can return home on it.
I don't want to go flying along at near 50mph. I just want to get up the hills in my area, which are steep, at about 10-15mph.

Other area would be a few miles away and would be paved, mostly flat trails, which I'd be cycling on with no assist and using the battery for getting home.

I've torn ligaments in my knee, so the idea of being able to get home without needing to over-exert it is what I'm going for. This is also the primary reason for wanting something with a throttle and hub drive (mid drive can break chains, I guess I could carry a quick link at all times though) and given that I've torn my PCL and MCL, it's mainly anxiety about being stranded miles away from home, in significant pain with no easy way of getting back if I overdo it with the knee. Which is why an ebike feels perfect. With the injury I have, I'm basically stuck in the house most of the time, being able to get out and about again would be a really good thing. So it's not really "I want to zoom around doing 40mph on the roads" but more "I want to be sure I can get up the hills and into my house if my knee freezes up while I'm out cycling".

With regards to getting caught, as I've said, it doesn't seem enforced here, as the bikes delivery drivers use have throttles and giant hub motors, was in the town today and took a quick glance myself. If the police were going to do a sting, I imagine all they'd need to do is drive up to anywhere that does deliveroo. Of course, I imagine they'd not be too happy with anyone going 20+ in a built up area too.

Though as I've said in a previous post. Dirtbiking along public trails in woods and the like isn't enforced here, unless you're doing something stupid and harassing people walking or riding their horses.

PS: Sorry about the multiple edits, figured I'd add more about the main reason I want something that can get up steep hills, which is, torn ligaments in my knee, so I may not be able to pedal at all if I overdo things.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

I've calculated the grade myself, they start at around 16 degrees up to 25 at the steepest.
I live near a lot of mountainous terrain. Not super high mountains, but mountains.
Some of the hills are steep enough that I had no problem keeping up with and overtaking cars on them when I used to cycle. No electricity, just highest gear and a little pedalling.
Of course I made sure I was safe, lights, high vos jacket and gloves (for signalling to turn) and a helmet.



Thanks for the correction. Just measured the rear dropouts on my bike are 10mm wide, 11.5mm deep. Depth measurement may be off as I didn't want to take the back wheel off entirely and use the depth gauge on my calipers, so I used a clear piece of plastic and marked with a sharpie. Then measured that using the step gauge.

I imagine this would require marking the required size, filing down (or using a drill bit with course sandpaper taped on, though I'd rather use a round file, more precise and aluminium is easy enough to file with tool steel) and adding a torque arm to make up for structural losses due to filing off a couple of mm?

Though how would a 14mm shaft fit into dropouts too small for it? I'd imagine it wouldn't fit at all, right?



I wouldn't want "An electric motorbike for the road" as you put it. However I won't be taking this on anything but the simplest dirt trails, either a downhill area (and not a difficult one) that can be accessed by road and then I can return home on it.
I don't want to go flying along at near 50mph. I just want to get up the hills in my area, which are steep, at about 10-15mph.

Other area would be a few miles away and would be paved, mostly flat trails, which I'd be cycling on with no assist and using the battery for getting home.

I've torn ligaments in my knee, so the idea of being able to get home without needing to over-exert it is what I'm going for. This is also the primary reason for wanting something with a throttle and hub drive (mid drive can break chains, I guess I could carry a quick link at all times though) and given that I've torn my PCL and MCL, it's mainly anxiety about being stranded miles away from home, in significant pain with no easy way of getting back if I overdo it with the knee. Which is why an ebike feels perfect. With the injury I have, I'm basically stuck in the house most of the time, being able to get out and about again would be a really good thing. So it's not really "I want to zoom around doing 40mph on the roads" but more "I want to be sure I can get up the hills and into my house if my knee freezes up while I'm out cycling".

With regards to getting caught, as I've said, it doesn't seem enforced here, as the bikes delivery drivers use have throttles and giant hub motors, was in the town today and took a quick glance myself. If the police were going to do a sting, I imagine all they'd need to do is drive up to anywhere that does deliveroo. Of course, I imagine they'd not be too happy with anyone going 20+ in a built up area too.

Though as I've said in a previous post. Dirtbiking along public trails in woods and the like isn't enforced here, unless you're doing something stupid and harassing people walking or riding their horses.

PS: Sorry about the multiple edits, figured I'd add more about the main reason I want something that can get up steep hills, which is, torn ligaments in my knee, so I may not be able to pedal at all if I overdo things.

Can I ask how heavy you are ? (It will take half the power to get a nine stone rider up a 20% hill at 10mph compared to an eighteen stone rider)

Also could you show the gradient on mapometer on the toughest hill you will regularly encounter e.g.

 

[soundwave]

fat ppl just need more amps

 

[soundwave]

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