Looking for a decent ebike to buy, on a bit of a 'budget'

[matthewslack]

I wouldn't have it work on the pedals for some of the reasons above. Though if I were building such a system, best way I could see would be through hall effect sensors and a magnet with it's pole flipped for specific pedal angles. Have that run to a microcontroller that sends a voltage to the throttle input and if you backpedal one full revolution into that position (so you'd need 3 hall sensors, one with a reversed pole, unless N/S sensing sensors are a thing), microcontroller counts the number of pulses, sees that the magnet has an opposing pole to what is normal and locks the bike to the current speed that it is going. You could even eliminate the need for opposing poles and have the bike speed locked after 2 full backpedal revolutions. Maybe allow for some additional backpedalling so you can get your pedals lined up for corners, one full revolution forward or back before it disengages. Probably only good for road use though.

Doubt it would be legal though, the laws need relaxed further and it's a pity (but wholly unsurprising) that the recent consultation got shot down. The UK (and other European nations) are dead set on banning everything into 'safety' and have a rather myopic view that, for example, if deaths caused by throttle powered ebikes are now higher than pre-2016, it must be the throttle doing it and not the fact that many people who are already breaking the law, are going to do so in other ways. Given that I've tested a throttle and a bad pedal assist system (which many people may end up getting on entry level ebike kits) I can say I'd never use that pedal assist because I don't want my bike launching me into traffic while I'm turning the pedals back to I can set off at a reasonable speed from lights, I can however, trust a throttle. As I've already said, someone in government was probably handed an extremely expensive ebike and told "This is how pedal assist works" and they voted on having that be the only way an ebike can function, moreover it was likely an MEP, so a person who isn't directly elected. Though in a twist of irony, the UK would have probably never have made EAPCs legal had we left the EU by then.


A course of action (not the best one, the best would be simple deregulation up to a point like they have in the US) I could see would be to make throttles and higher powered motors legal, with a caveat. Simply do a one or two hour course on "How to use an advanced ebike", no need for insurance, no need for a registration number plate on your bike, just a little "If bike is going to crash, take hand/thumb off throttle" card in your pocket.
Want to make it even safer, there's a system used on boats that is cheap, easy to fit and not bulky; a strap which you put around your wrist attached to the engine kill. All it would need to do on an ebike is close a switch (or bridge a circuit) that allows the motor to function.
That could even be combined so that riders without certification would be required to have to have a safety tether, people without it would be recommended to use one, you could even throw it in as a freebie for doing the £50-75 'course' you do, given in bulk a wrist strap and a switch costs next to nothing.

The reasoning is dead simple, and you can have what you want already.

An EAPC is a bicycle, and a bicycle needs the rider to pedal. That's fundamental to the definition: 'Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle'.

You want a very low powered electric motorbike. Well you can have one, but it then becomes in law an LPM: 'Low Power Moped'. And it needs to go through a one time approval process.

 

[guerney]

A handlebar button enabled hypersensitive pedal assist mode could be implemented for torque-sensored systems too. Should be legal, because the pedals would need to be used for it to provide assistance. It'd stop all those torque sensored dudes moaning about throttles being illegal.

pedalling; noun: pedaling
the action of working the pedals of a bicycle.

 

[saneagle]

Oh come on, it was supposed to be funny, but in retrospect, it really wasn't. Are you saying your bike has a hypersensitive pedal assist mode which starts with a 1° rotation of the cranks, enabled/disabled by a button on the handlebar as described in the post above? People wouldn't be endlessly moaning about throttles, if they had a pedal assist mode which operated like that.

Yes, more or less. It's not 1 deg, but close enough.

There's another way you can get what you want by mechanical means. Mount a derailleur idler sprocket on a thumb throttle and fix the device to the chainsaw so that the sprocket rests on the upper chain run. The spring will hold the chain down. As soon as you apply force to the pedal, the chain will tighten, lift the sprocket and operate the throttle, so the amount of throttle you get depends on how hard you press the pedals. You can have it enabled/disabled with a simple switch so that it doesn't interfere with normal PAS function.

If you want it simpler, you only need a switch and a spring (like a motorbike brake switch) connected to a simple lever with the sprocket on it, operated by the tension in the upper chain run. IIRC, there was a bike that used that system to operate the pedal assist, but it was a long time ago and I can't remember the details.

 

[guerney]

Yes, more or less. It's not 1 deg, but close enough.

Anyone can move rotate or jerk the crank arm by 1 degree, even uphill, and with max current and programmed very long motor run-on, it'd of course be ever easier to keep pedalling. For the toque sensored dudes, assistance at max current could start with a bumblebee fart, hypersensitivity permitting? Or multiply measured torque while the button is depressed, revert to normal when it cheers up.

 

[chris_n]

You switch the middle position, then you can do what you want with the pedals without affecting the motor, or you do what you always do - put one pedal up then the other.

So you can't use it on bendy roads, got it.
Doesn't really sound fit for purpose as a throttle though.

 

[guerney]

So you can't use it on bendy roads, got it.
Doesn't really sound fit for purpose as a throttle though.

The only pedal you want at 6 is the offside pedal. inside pedal in that position is dangerous.
I've made the mistake of going into a(in this instance) a left hand tight bend with the left hand pedal in the 6 o clock position, it hit the ground and , well basically lifted the entire bike up and both wheels disconnected from the ground, and i went on an elbow first road slide.
Nearly ground that elbow to the bone

Once clipped, never forgotten! I always make sure the pedal on the leant over side is not nearest the road surface or kerb - who full throttles around bends anyway? Once you rotate the right hand side crank to the 90°/3 O' clock position, you'd be on half-throttle, or none if you touch the ebrake until you've gone around the bend.

I have to keep both pedals level while traversing speedbumps lest I clip one, which reminds me, there ought to be accelerometer activated momentary throttle cutoff when heavy bumps are encountered, as we don't want outcomes of potholes and speed bump encounters becoming any hairier.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

The reasoning is dead simple, and you can have what you want already.

An EAPC is a bicycle, and a bicycle needs the rider to pedal. That's fundamental to the definition: 'Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle'.

You want a very low powered electric motorbike. Well you can have one, but it then becomes in law an LPM: 'Low Power Moped'. And it needs to go through a one time approval process.

First off the word "Assisted" does not mean you need to be pedalling. Someone in a wheelchair can be assisted by a family member, friend or carer who pushes said wheelchair. Doesn't mean they need to be wheeling themselves around at the same time.
With a throttle it is still a pedal cycle, I'll say this using one with a throttle and I still end up pedalling well over 90% of the time.
A lot of the time I don't use the throttle and I don't need to dick around with pedal assist settings to turn the power to the motor off while pedalling.

Additionally, I've not heard any reasoning as to why throttles are more dangerous, you've said the law and that's about it. Not all laws are well thought out.
as I've said, some unelected individual likely got given a bike worth multiple thousands of pounds with an extremely cutting edge pedal assist and assumed that's what they're all like. Basically the "Buy a Tesla" of the ebike world.

I fitted a pedal assist, it gives power to the motor even when backpedalling. A throttle does not do that. Of course I could spend more on a better controller and pedal assist (and probably will) though a throttle is simple and good for an entry level ebike. Most people aren't going to spend 2k+ on an ebike if it's their first, they'll go for an entry level one, or a kit, which likely comes with a pretty poor pedal assist. Shifting your pedals back at traffic lights and suddenly having the motor come on and send you into moving traffic seems a whole lot more hazardous than being able to get the bike to move by pushing a lever in.

As I've already said, deregulation up to 1HP (750W) would be fine by me, over-regulation in the UK has never improved safety, be it with knives (which just like an ebike, are primarily tools) guns (again, tools; with one specific purpose, putting holes in targets) there was even a plan to ban beer bottles and introduce hardened glasses to stop pub brawls in '97.
Regulation/bans simply don't work and in the case of shoddily made PAS systems, may make things more dangerous. Education would work, which is why a solution would just be a quick visual and written (online or not) course for people who want to cycle 'class 2' ebikes.
The benefits for people with mobility issues would be vast, not to mention the mental health benefits for people who, should they not have a car and have mobility issues, may feel trapped in their own home and we have very recent figures on how people who felt trapped in their own homes responded in terms of mental health; not well at all.

Making cycling more accessible to more people seems like a net benefit to everyone for me.

 

[soundwave]

anyone got a spare motor and batt so i can make a mobility scooter ?

needs more power

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

anyone got a spare motor and batt so i can make a mobility scooter ?

needs more power
View attachment 62350

You seem to like blogging. Have you tried wordpress?
Maybe buzzfeed would take you on?

 

[soundwave]

BuzzFeed, Inc. is an American Internet media, news and entertainment company with a focus on digital media. Based in New York City, BuzzFeed was founded in 2006 by Jonah Peretti and John S. Johnson III to focus on tracking viral content.



they said no

 

[soundwave]

my leg is fooked so need a 1250bhp ebike so if i crash it again i can fit in a bucket or have to go in wheele bin mon night for next day cremation down the PowerStation that burns rubbish for profit.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

View attachment 62353
my leg is fooked so need a 1250bhp ebike so if i crash it again i can fit in a bucket or have to go in wheele bin mon night for next day cremation down the PowerStation that burns rubbish for profit.

View attachment 62354

Sorry to hear that. I assume you continued cycling so people wouldn't give you funny looks for wearing a helmet in public?

 

[saneagle]

So you can't use it on bendy roads, got it.
Doesn't really sound fit for purpose as a throttle though.

I think your missing something somewhere. Read what I wrote again.

 

[guerney]

I fitted a pedal assist, it gives power to the motor even when backpedalling. A throttle does not do that. Of course I could spend more on a better controller and pedal assist (and probably will) though a throttle is simple and good for an entry level ebike. Most people aren't going to spend 2k+ on an ebike if it's their first, they'll go for an entry level one, or a kit, which likely comes with a pretty poor pedal assist. Shifting your pedals back at traffic lights and suddenly having the motor come on and send you into moving traffic seems a whole lot more hazardous than being able to get the bike to move by pushing a lever in.

Which kit is that specifically? Sounds useful - if pedal assist works pedalling backwards, it'd make for easy hill starts. If you have ebrakes, backpedalling pedal assist would be safe?

 

[soundwave]

nope 12% t1000 titanium leg and hip to go 40 mph on my bike i need 120rpm at cranks.

i was only going 23mph n someone walked out straight in front of me on a fkn phone i should have hit them head on as clipped there ass locked the back brake n next thing i know is my right leg is backwards ko on the grass embankment like hitting a wall.

i broke my pelvis in 3 places
broke my collier bone
broke my thumb
nuked my hip and half my right leg and now have ti rods n bolts 6hr opp as looked like a nuke went off it was like i jumped of a cliff.

first thing i asked is what happens if i crash again any warranty

 

[guerney]

Sorry to hear that. I assume you continued cycling so people wouldn't give you funny looks for wearing a helmet in public?

I do wish it was socially acceptable to wear helmets in public at all times, someday it will be when we're all forced to live in hermetically sealed domes and have to wear spacesuits when out walking. I record all of my bike rides with my helmet affiixed GoPro, in case I fancy suing someone for their house... can't have too many houses... great equity... and it'd be great if my helmet could record all of the bizarre shiz I see every day when not cycling. I probably walk about more than most on this forum, some days about 10 miles of pavement between train stations and bus stops. It's mad out there.

 

[Mr. B Ikeman]

Which kit is that specifically? Sounds useful - if pedal assist works pedalling backwards, it'd make for easy hill starts. If you have ebrakes, backpedalling pedal assist would be safe?

Just an ebay split-disk pedal assist. Single hall sensor.
Would probably be safer to get a gear on your cassette that just isn't attached to the wheel. Gear with a bearing before the splines/threads. That way you could pedal forwards with almost no effort (probably less than backpedalling), a tiny bit of dirt in your drivetrain isn't going to derail the chain and you're not going to have to rely on ebrakes to stop the bike flying off if you adjust the pedals while stopped. You would need to get that freewheeling (in either direction) gear custom machined, though cheap online-order CNC out of mild steel should probably suffice as it's not going to actually see much force.
You would probably have to sacrifice a gear on your cassette though unless there's enough room to sneak an extra on.

 

[Sturmey]

First off the word "Assisted" does not mean you need to be pedalling. Someone in a wheelchair can be assisted by a family member, friend or carer who pushes said wheelchair. Doesn't mean they need to be wheeling themselves around at the same time.
With a throttle it is still a pedal cycle, I'll say this using one with a throttle and I still end up pedalling well over 90% of the time.
A lot of the time I don't use the throttle and I don't need to dick around with pedal assist settings to turn the power to the motor off while pedalling.

Additionally, I've not heard any reasoning as to why throttles are more dangerous, you've said the law and that's about it. Not all laws are well thought out.
as I've said, some unelected individual likely got given a bike worth multiple thousands of pounds with an extremely cutting edge pedal assist and assumed that's what they're all like. Basically the "Buy a Tesla" of the ebike world.

I fitted a pedal assist, it gives power to the motor even when backpedalling. A throttle does not do that. Of course I could spend more on a better controller and pedal assist (and probably will) though a throttle is simple and good for an entry level ebike. Most people aren't going to spend 2k+ on an ebike if it's their first, they'll go for an entry level one, or a kit, which likely comes with a pretty poor pedal assist. Shifting your pedals back at traffic lights and suddenly having the motor come on and send you into moving traffic seems a whole lot more hazardous than being able to get the bike to move by pushing a lever in.

As I've already said, deregulation up to 1HP (750W) would be fine by me, over-regulation in the UK has never improved safety, be it with knives (which just like an ebike, are primarily tools) guns (again, tools; with one specific purpose, putting holes in targets) there was even a plan to ban beer bottles and introduce hardened glasses to stop pub brawls in '97.
Regulation/bans simply don't work and in the case of shoddily made PAS systems, may make things more dangerous. Education would work, which is why a solution would just be a quick visual and written (online or not) course for people who want to cycle 'class 2' ebikes.
The benefits for people with mobility issues would be vast, not to mention the mental health benefits for people who, should they not have a car and have mobility issues, may feel trapped in their own home and we have very recent figures on how people who felt trapped in their own homes responded in terms of mental health; not well at all.

Making cycling more accessible to more people seems like a net benefit to everyone for me.

There is usually a history to particular laws and its often possible to look up the different debates and contributors and amendments etc. But I think (and correct me if I am wrong as I am no expert) this paragraph goes back to at least the 2002 European directive below which I presume many countries try to stick to and it has more or less stuck despite the documents revision.. I presume it could be changed or individual countries may possibly choose to ignore/modify it .

(h) cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0,25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling,

There was a separate provision for disability scooters etc but I think the speed limit is could be something like 4 or 8 mph.

Directive - 2002/24 - EN - EUR-Lex

eur-lex.europa.eu

 

[Bizdustry]

I haven’t yet published this video on my channel, but I’m due to publish the review in a few hours but the link will work to access the content.

The bike below, retails for under £500 and goes up to 22mph of speed (when you remove the restriction). It also folds up.

Only downside, it’s rather small for larger riders, like myself but perfect budget ebike.


iSCOOTER U4 Review - Electric Bike UNDER £500?!

 

[matthewslack]

I haven’t yet published this video on my channel, but I’m due to publish the review in a few hours but the link will work to access the content.

The bike below, retails for under £500 and goes up to 22mph of speed (when you remove the restriction). It also folds up.

Only downside, it’s rather small for larger riders, like myself but perfect budget ebike.


iSCOOTER U4 Review - Electric Bike UNDER £500?!

Don't publish links here to content that shows how to break the law.