Col, here is a practical suggestion.Why not import an s-class KTM and attempt to register, tax and insure it for road use. Then we would all know if it was possible and how difficult it was.
Liability....
- Thread starter KTM Bike Industries UK
- Start date
Blimey! The last thing I expected from this thread is a sensible suggestion. Why have you not already done this Col?
I do love it when someone joins the e-bike world less than a year ago and then presumes to lecture me! Actually Tom, I possibly do know more about e-bike law than anyone else, since I not only know the UK and EU laws, on this subject I also know the Federal law and all the individual state laws in the USA, the laws in the the non-EU countries of Norway and Switzerland, and these laws in numerous other countries around the world. After all, I was working in the trade on power assisted bicycles in 1950 so have a fairly long grounding in the subject.
I obviously cannot advise you as to why the police chose to use illegal vehicles since only they will know that. I suspect it might be due to ignorance of this complex subject. Alternatively, they may have made the same mistake as much of the e-bike trade in 2003, misinterpreting the 2002/EC/24 EU two and three wheeler type approval law when it was adopted by the UK on 10th November 2003, since when these problems arose.
However, I can point you to arrests and EAPC seizures for destruction under the 1983 EAPC legislation dating from five years later and beyond.
On the morning of Thursday the 4th December 2008 the Metropolitan Police conducted an extensive operation specifically to seize a number of illegal EAPCs, arresting the riders. The EAPCs in question were trikes, pedicabs operating in London, falling victim to the 1983 EAPC legislation when their riders fitted e-bike motors to make their life easier. Some of the motors were 250 watts, legal for e-trikes only under our law, but others were illegally higher powered. However, all were illegal under our EAPC law which specifies a maximum e-trike weight of 60 kilos which the pedicabs could not meet. That made the prosecution very easy, no complex legal arguments about motor power needed. This makes you wrong in your claim that the EAPC regulations are redundant.
It also conveniently makes you wrong about the EU law being in force in the UK. You see, with my comprehensive knowledge of world-wide e-bike regulations, I know that they have no e-trike weight limit. So if the EU regulation had force here, the police could not have carried out that whole operation or subsequent ones, such e-pedicabs being legal in mainland Europe under EU law.
Below is the link to news of that London police operation. The EAPC seizures have continued, over 300 London ones in 2012 alone, reported elsewhere on the web.
London police seize illegal e-trikes
Following this and my preceding reply to KTM on page 7, hopefully the doubters will at last accept the facts in lieu of their mystical beliefs about e-bike law.
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Having thought about this for a bit, is it not just a case of those who take the biggest risks in business, usually reap the biggest rewards. Also, 'default responses' from lawyers are very rarely based on anything resembling reality, more the worst-case reflection on the state of the world in which we live today.
For anyone unhappy with their purchase of a 250W electric bicycle that was expressly told at the time of purchase that it was legal to use on the road should seek consumer advice from the Citizens advice, as they have recently been allocated funding for this purpose, and can try an obtain a refund.
Ok, whilst this thread has been bumbling along (and actually for some time before I posted this little test to see if anyone responded). We have been thinking about what to do, and how to handle this. So now in an effort to end this for everyone... he's what we know.
We suspect that by 2016, the UK will have caught up with the EU and we'll be able to register them, but we will see.
Next. As I've said above, we're totally confident that the 250w bikes are ok to be used on the UK roads and offroad, and no one should be prosecuted and us as a brand and our dealers can't be liable for these bikes being involved in accidents. Any attempt by people to say they are not ok to be used, is just an attempt to justify their use of higher powered bikes, which are very much not the same thing.
With regard to Dongles and bikes that are over 250w. We will not be offering them to UK customers, unless they can prove they have private land to use them on. There are a number of reasons for this, that include but are not limited to our liability should you being involved in an accident. There are a number of people who are using these illegal bikes who don't appreciate the risks they are taking, and the brands and dealers selling them are putting their customers at risk of prosecution, and hefty liability.
No one in the trade who sells these items has responded and I think its clear why. They are basically taking a massive risk, and yes whilst there is big reward for them now selling these bikes, having looked at all the evidence and consulted widely.... we wont be selling them until they are legal, I'm not prepared to risk my company and my customers driving licenses and finances.
Yes, we do Hoppy, that is the plan... as soon as KTM have a production one ready we will bring one into the UK and try to register it with the DVLA and insure it. We will of course post the results.
We suspect that by 2016, the UK will have caught up with the EU and we'll be able to register them, but we will see.
Next. As I've said above, we're totally confident that the 250w bikes are ok to be used on the UK roads and offroad, and no one should be prosecuted and us as a brand and our dealers can't be liable for these bikes being involved in accidents. Any attempt by people to say they are not ok to be used, is just an attempt to justify their use of higher powered bikes, which are very much not the same thing.
With regard to Dongles and bikes that are over 250w. We will not be offering them to UK customers, unless they can prove they have private land to use them on. There are a number of reasons for this, that include but are not limited to our liability should you being involved in an accident. There are a number of people who are using these illegal bikes who don't appreciate the risks they are taking, and the brands and dealers selling them are putting their customers at risk of prosecution, and hefty liability.
No one in the trade who sells these items has responded and I think its clear why. They are basically taking a massive risk, and yes whilst there is big reward for them now selling these bikes, having looked at all the evidence and consulted widely.... we wont be selling them until they are legal, I'm not prepared to risk my company and my customers driving licenses and finances.
think what you like.I asked a couple of perfectly relevant and interesting questions. The fact that no one chose to answer them... is an answer in itself.
If the UK is not up to speed when you try, under present law you will find that S class bike will not be accepted as it is. A huge range of modifications are necessary, but no need to take my word for it, here's a link to a thread where someone has effectively done it already:
Creating a faster legal e-bike in the UK
Of course all current 250 watt e-bikes restricted to 15.5 mph are now ok to be used since the April 2013 waiver that I have drawn attention to, despite the law still stating them to be illegal. The sooner this mess is sorted the better, but it seems we may still have a long time to wait. The DfT have repeatedly failed to meet every previous target for updating, so I have little confidence in the 2016 indication.
And of course if the forthcoming referendum results in us leaving the EU, there will be no more harmonising changes. That will present a new problem in respect of the temporary waiver!
,
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Faster e-bike.
I can see why he chose to go the route of converting a Moped as it avoided the type approval but it does mean he was handicapped by a significant weight penalty which translates into a much increased power requirement.
I can see why he chose to go the route of converting a Moped as it avoided the type approval but it does mean he was handicapped by a significant weight penalty which translates into a much increased power requirement.
D
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Has there been any attempt anywhere, Colin? If so, where? I've been reading this forum for over four years, and I've never seen any post that says they're not OK to be used. Maybe I missed it.
I might be able to help here. I have met some senior officers and can confirm that It's ignorance, and lots of it.
here, is just one I can find.
Flecc, lumps 250w bikes in with higher power ones.
It very much is a very new and different problem, under 250w, no issues for us, or the public using the bikes. Over 250w and your driving an illegal vehicle on the roads and should the continued growth of awareness lead to any one being stopped you could get points and lots of them on your license, and should you be involved in an accident the liability and prosecution are likely.
So I stand by my statement that there has been comments made on this forum, that hint that if you're going to break the law and ride 250w, you might aswell ride 1000w. The thresehold has been sent by the EU and its 250w and the UK legislation will follow that. 250w is not a problem in the UK.
"as soon as KTM have a production one ready we will bring one into the UK and try to register it with the DVLA and insure it. We will of course post the results.
We suspect that by 2016, the UK will have caught up with the EU and we'll be able to register them, but we will see.
Next. As I've said above, we're totally confident that the 250w bikes are ok to be used on the UK roads and offroad, and no one should be prosecuted and us as a brand and our dealers can't be liable for these bikes being involved in accidents. Any attempt by people to say they are not ok to be used, is just an attempt to justify their use of higher powered bikes, which are very much not the same thing.
With regard to Dongles and bikes that are over 250w. We will not be offering them to UK customers, unless they can prove they have private land to use them on. There are a number of reasons for this, that include but are not limited to our liability should you being involved in an accident. There are a number of people who are using these illegal bikes who don't appreciate the risks they are taking, and the brands and dealers selling them are putting their customers at risk of prosecution, and hefty liability.
No one in the trade who sells these items has responded and I think its clear why. They are basically taking a massive risk, and yes whilst there is big reward for them now selling these bikes, having looked at all the evidence and consulted widely.... we wont be selling them until they are legal, I'm not prepared to risk my company and my customers driving licenses and finances."[/quote]
Excellent, Col, don't be put off trying.I'd love a truly legal s-class and am not put off by the no. plate or helmet requirements or any others!
We suspect that by 2016, the UK will have caught up with the EU and we'll be able to register them, but we will see.
Next. As I've said above, we're totally confident that the 250w bikes are ok to be used on the UK roads and offroad, and no one should be prosecuted and us as a brand and our dealers can't be liable for these bikes being involved in accidents. Any attempt by people to say they are not ok to be used, is just an attempt to justify their use of higher powered bikes, which are very much not the same thing.
With regard to Dongles and bikes that are over 250w. We will not be offering them to UK customers, unless they can prove they have private land to use them on. There are a number of reasons for this, that include but are not limited to our liability should you being involved in an accident. There are a number of people who are using these illegal bikes who don't appreciate the risks they are taking, and the brands and dealers selling them are putting their customers at risk of prosecution, and hefty liability.
No one in the trade who sells these items has responded and I think its clear why. They are basically taking a massive risk, and yes whilst there is big reward for them now selling these bikes, having looked at all the evidence and consulted widely.... we wont be selling them until they are legal, I'm not prepared to risk my company and my customers driving licenses and finances."[/quote]
Excellent, Col, don't be put off trying.I'd love a truly legal s-class and am not put off by the no. plate or helmet requirements or any others!
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I agree that 250 watts usage is not a problem in the UK and have posted as such earlier, but in legal terms what I have said is absolutely correct. 250 watts remains outside the permitted legal power specified in the only relevant UK law, so there is no legal difference between 250 watts and 1000 watts. Both are legally the same offence.
Prior to the 13th of April last year, 250 watts in the UK was not permitted in any e-bike circumstance and never had been. After that date a waiver then prevented prosecution using that legal power, it did not change the law in any way. Police forces were merely told not to act on the 200 watt power limit part of that law and permit up to 250 watts.
My replies to Tom should not be misunderstood. He has stated the EAPC law is redundant and the EU law is in force here. I have posted in reply to correct him and added evidence in support, but have never said that 250 watts could not be used in the UK after the 13th April 2013.
I have and still do maintain the the law makes 250 watts illegal and I have shown that in this thread using the government's own definition on their website.
That is fact.
.
I once ran into a dog! It was a very big dog weighing about 10 stone and although it was unhurt in the collision there was considerable damage to my car. The owner was being totally irisponsible by allowing this dog off its lead, in fact encouraging it to run across the road! So who was liable for the damage to my car.. My insurance told me they would make ua claim off of the owners house insurance but if they wouldn't pay it's tough **. Are bicycles not insured in this way?
I watch far too much daytime TV and often see youths without licenses driving untaxed, untested and uninsured cars causing absolute mayhem and uncountable damage and the often get off with a slap on the wrist and a small fine! So how come all this about an e-bike? Although responding to an earlier post.. Any one doing 20 mph on the towpath where they can't see what's around the corner deserves everything they get..
I guess the difference is that most e bike owners have assets and can therefore be perused for compensation, while the yobs in cars probably don't.
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