I haven't been on this forum for very long but I feel I already know what the Bill Murray character was going through in Groundhog Day.
Liability....
- Thread starter KTM Bike Industries UK
- Start date
But what you say is simply not true Tom, and you are being grossly unfair to members who are being helpful in pointing out the true position and in no way interpreting when they repeat the actual wording of the law.
We in the UK are NOT fully signed up to EU legislation, and there is no such thing as Europe wide common legislation since member countries are permitted variations.
The EU legislation on pedelecs has NOT been adopted and I've copied and pasted the DfT statements confirming that. They intend to adopt that with variations in 2016 if time permits.
At least one police force has said that 250 watt e-bikes are illegal and one attempted a prosecution. That was blocked after an intervention by BEBA guided by me, not because the law did not apply but to avoid government embarrassment. That in turn resulted in a meeting of interested parties at which it was agreed UK police forces would be told not to implement that law, a waiver, not a change in the law.
250 watt rated e-bikes remain illegal in the UK at present, as they have always been. This link is to the governments own site telling you the latest 2014 position on the main provisions of the EAPC regulations, from which you will see that the government itself is telling you that your 250 watt e-bike is not legal. The full EAPC law exposes another way in which your e-bike is not legal, plating.
Members are not erroneous on those points, we are not interpreting, we are merely stating the law that the government itself confirms.
It's a simple fact of life that the authorities find it expedient at times to ignore the law or even break the law themselves. This is one such case, since not only is the law being ignored, it's even being flouted by the police using 250 watt e-bikes as you've observed, but it's still the law and everything that doesn't comply is illegal.
.
Yes, we all do. I've even got a recent example of a judge knowingly seriously breaking the law in more than one way in a single case, purely for reasons of administrative expediency and a paper outcome suitable to the authorities.we break lots of laws
The defendant facing very serious charges which could have got a ten year custodial sentence* was able to walk from court suffering no custodial sentence and no other consequence, simply by agreeing to change his plea to guilty! The case was then concluded on the pre-trial day, never appearing before a jury so not reported, the public kept in the dark. The defendant was not in any way an establishment figure, and justice was certainly not seen to be done. It makes our pedelec infringements look rather petty.
*Parliamentary guideline under the 2005 act was 7 to 11 years.
.
go on then, show a world of potential customers what you really are!we break lots of laws
what we are is giving up on this thread. It was about liability, not legality.
and it was about dongle effecting warranty.
its gone way off topic, into old old old debates.
So we're breaking the law of forums.... and continuing to post after we've already said we wouldn't
that and ....
I have rather enjoyed reading this thread as it went along. I feel I have learnt a lot. Thanks all
For me it was exactly the opposite.
Rather like watching a bad film, your expecting something worthwhile to happen because the paper recommended it, only to be surprised when the titles come up and you finally realise the good film was shown on a different channel.
This thread has been a part of my life I'd rather forget.
Gringo, sometimes the awfulness of something can have a hypnotic fascination. You really must learn to let go early.
For me it was exactly the opposite.
Rather like watching a bad film, your expecting something worthwhile to happen because the paper recommended it, only to be surprised when the titles come up and you finally realise the good film was shown on a different channel.
This thread has been a part of my life I'd rather forget.
.
I thought I'd moved on then you went and quoted me, a flag pops up drawing me back in.
This time I'm not coming back to this thread. No really
LOLI thought I'd moved on then you went and quoted me, a flag pops up drawing me back in.
This time I'm not coming back to this thread. No really
It seems to me that a number of forum members choose to live in denial as far as Europe and European law is concerned. Stating that the only law which applies to EAPCs is the UK one, under which thousands could be prosecuted for using motors of 250w rather than 200w is just pedantry. That no-one in recent years (if ever) has been prosecuted for riding a 250w, otherwise compliant, EAPC illustrates my point that that law is effectively now redundant. I don't say that it doesn't exist; I say that it will not be used for any prosecution.
To ignore European law which, like it or not, is now our ultimate legal arbiter, NOT THE SUPREME COURT, particularly in human rights issues, is simply Europhobic and the law with regard to 250w will become our law soon enough.
As far as my bikes go, every 250w bike purchased in the UK from bona fide EAPC sellers is ostensibly legal for use in the UK, otherwise legal precedent to the contrary would by now be long since established. Moving on from that, you cannot simply brush aside the police use of such EAPCs as if it were of no significance. The police have legal obligations in the same way as everyone else and have top-class legal opinion readily available to them. Prior to procurement, all aspects of EAPC usage would have been explored, debated and resolved by bean counters, lawyers and H&S advisers. Do you really expect forum readers to believe that no-one involved in the police procurement process ever questioned the legality of the bikes before purchase? Are you suggesting that if anyone ever said, "They're illegal!" that someone with more clout then said, "So what? We can do whatever we want."?
You are also saying that the UK is not fully signed up to the EU Flecc. Where do you get that notion from? This country has signed every treaty required of it to continue our membership as a nett contributor to the community's coffers. While it is true that variations exist in the application of pieces of Europe-wide legislation, (which you seem to claim doesn't exist), that is not something unique to the UK. I'm sure you know perfectly well that harmony in the EAPC regulations will be brought about in the not too distant future. This country will fall into line with our European neighbours in exactly the same way we have on other issues, not least the power reduction of some electrical appliances, effective from today.
There has always been a notion among English people that the UK is superior to our continental neighbours but that is not the case in all truth. Perhaps if more Brits spent real time in European countries, (as I do) instead of just briefly holidaying there, they would come to understand that we're not so smart and they certainly ain't stupid!
People can argue till the cows come home about whether or not it's a good thing for the UK to be a full member of the EU but when you consider how well some other countries not too far from our shores have done, it becomes difficult to argue against the concept.
I'm afraid Flecc, your standpoint on this issue just gives comfort and succour to the criminal element who will continue to flagrantly contravene the law because they have no morals and no sense of responsibility. They want us all to believe that we're riding illegal, unregistered motor vehicles simply as an attempt to ameliorate their own elective criminality. 'I'm all right Jack; sod everybody else!' seems increasingly tolerated in these pages and I'm really disappointed that you feel the need to align yourself with such an element.
One of the last capital offences in the UK which attracted a mandatory death penalty, Arson in Her Majesty's Dockyards, stood on the statute book for several years after the death penalty for murder was abolished. Although it remained the prescribed penalty, that law was effectively redundant, just like the 200w limit, and it was commonly understood that no-one would suffer the ultimate penalty for such an offence.
Tom
To ignore European law which, like it or not, is now our ultimate legal arbiter, NOT THE SUPREME COURT, particularly in human rights issues, is simply Europhobic and the law with regard to 250w will become our law soon enough.
we break lots of laws
I hope you're not speaking for me there Flecc because, as an upstanding citizen, I abide by laws and don't pick and choose which I'll respect and which that I won't. The 250w situation is easily reconciled as follows:
As far as my bikes go, every 250w bike purchased in the UK from bona fide EAPC sellers is ostensibly legal for use in the UK, otherwise legal precedent to the contrary would by now be long since established. Moving on from that, you cannot simply brush aside the police use of such EAPCs as if it were of no significance. The police have legal obligations in the same way as everyone else and have top-class legal opinion readily available to them. Prior to procurement, all aspects of EAPC usage would have been explored, debated and resolved by bean counters, lawyers and H&S advisers. Do you really expect forum readers to believe that no-one involved in the police procurement process ever questioned the legality of the bikes before purchase? Are you suggesting that if anyone ever said, "They're illegal!" that someone with more clout then said, "So what? We can do whatever we want."?
You are also saying that the UK is not fully signed up to the EU Flecc. Where do you get that notion from? This country has signed every treaty required of it to continue our membership as a nett contributor to the community's coffers. While it is true that variations exist in the application of pieces of Europe-wide legislation, (which you seem to claim doesn't exist), that is not something unique to the UK. I'm sure you know perfectly well that harmony in the EAPC regulations will be brought about in the not too distant future. This country will fall into line with our European neighbours in exactly the same way we have on other issues, not least the power reduction of some electrical appliances, effective from today.
There has always been a notion among English people that the UK is superior to our continental neighbours but that is not the case in all truth. Perhaps if more Brits spent real time in European countries, (as I do) instead of just briefly holidaying there, they would come to understand that we're not so smart and they certainly ain't stupid!
People can argue till the cows come home about whether or not it's a good thing for the UK to be a full member of the EU but when you consider how well some other countries not too far from our shores have done, it becomes difficult to argue against the concept.
I'm afraid Flecc, your standpoint on this issue just gives comfort and succour to the criminal element who will continue to flagrantly contravene the law because they have no morals and no sense of responsibility. They want us all to believe that we're riding illegal, unregistered motor vehicles simply as an attempt to ameliorate their own elective criminality. 'I'm all right Jack; sod everybody else!' seems increasingly tolerated in these pages and I'm really disappointed that you feel the need to align yourself with such an element.
One of the last capital offences in the UK which attracted a mandatory death penalty, Arson in Her Majesty's Dockyards, stood on the statute book for several years after the death penalty for murder was abolished. Although it remained the prescribed penalty, that law was effectively redundant, just like the 200w limit, and it was commonly understood that no-one would suffer the ultimate penalty for such an offence.
Tom
I'm afraid you are in denial Tom. As I've stated a police force did commence a prosecution of a 250 watt rated e-bike rider for riding an illegal e-bike which would certainly have succeeded but for the intervention of BEBA. The EAPC regulations were what they were using and that is the only electric assist law applicable in the UK. It has been fully in force and active from it's inception in 1983 and April 2013 when the DfT agreed to instruct police forces to desist from it's application in respect of the 250 watts only. All other parts of the UK's EAPC legislation still apply. We've linked you to the government's 2014 statement on the law but it seems you must think they are lying. If you believe that law is redundant, why would the government repost that web page in June?
None of the EU's legislation on pedelecs applies in the UK, nor do they use the term EAPC, and before you disagree again, please show me where that EU law has been adopted. You cannot because it hasn't been. In stark contrast I can direct you to all the unchanged UK law that still does apply.
None of what I say is anything to do with being anti Europe for I'm a strong believer in the union and wish we would participate fully instead of being so half-hearted about it. I also wish our civil service had followed the acceptance of the 2002/EU/24 two and three wheeler type approval directive by adopting the EU's pedelec law at the same time. Sadly they never have, the only country in the union not to have done so. Equally I am not aligning myself with those who set out to flout e-bike law, I'm just stating facts.
This is the factual current position in UK law on our e-bikes:
The UK's 1983 EAPC regulation is in force. The EU's pedelecs legislation is not, simply because it appears nowhere in UK law so cannot be followed by the courts.
BS1727 is the technical specification for the electrical parts on our e-bikes, the EU's EN15194 technical directive is not, once again because it has not been adopted into UK law so cannot be followed.
.
None of the EU's legislation on pedelecs applies in the UK, nor do they use the term EAPC, and before you disagree again, please show me where that EU law has been adopted. You cannot because it hasn't been. In stark contrast I can direct you to all the unchanged UK law that still does apply.
None of what I say is anything to do with being anti Europe for I'm a strong believer in the union and wish we would participate fully instead of being so half-hearted about it. I also wish our civil service had followed the acceptance of the 2002/EU/24 two and three wheeler type approval directive by adopting the EU's pedelec law at the same time. Sadly they never have, the only country in the union not to have done so. Equally I am not aligning myself with those who set out to flout e-bike law, I'm just stating facts.
This is the factual current position in UK law on our e-bikes:
The UK's 1983 EAPC regulation is in force. The EU's pedelecs legislation is not, simply because it appears nowhere in UK law so cannot be followed by the courts.
BS1727 is the technical specification for the electrical parts on our e-bikes, the EU's EN15194 technical directive is not, once again because it has not been adopted into UK law so cannot be followed.
.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
Technically it is illegal to park on the pavement...
" You MUST NOT park partially or wholly on the pavement in London, and should not do so elsewhere unless signs permit it."
That's from the highway code.
This law is widely disregarded by almost everyone. Why? Because if people didn't, most of the roads I pass currently in my car on my way to work would be impassable.
Some laws and rules are outdated and rightly not enforced.
" You MUST NOT park partially or wholly on the pavement in London, and should not do so elsewhere unless signs permit it."
That's from the highway code.
This law is widely disregarded by almost everyone. Why? Because if people didn't, most of the roads I pass currently in my car on my way to work would be impassable.
Some laws and rules are outdated and rightly not enforced.
You do that all the time Flecc; choosing selected snippets of facts interspersed with anecdotal tales of prosecutions that never concluded with convictions then arguing black is white as if you know more about EAPCs and the law than anybody else.
How about producing some real evidence to support your assertion that 250w EAPCs are illegal? Instead of hiding behind the 1983 regulations, give us chapter and verse on a few cases which have resulted in successful convictions under that law. I have agreed that the law remains in place for the time being but have said it is effectively redundant. If you can produce evidence which would demonstrate otherwise, then let's see it. It really would be in the public interest.
Probably like a lot of other readers of these pages, I'm sick and tired of this smoke and mirrors situation where you seem to be the sole director of information. I'm tired of hearing about waivers, special dispensation, unwritten understandings and how your intervention prevented a successful prosecution once upon a time. I'm also fed up with the accusation from the wantonly criminal element that all who ride 250w EAPCs are just as illegal as those who alter their machines to produce power assistance at speeds greatly in excess of that permitted.
I'd also like an explanation if you have one as to how the police, with full information regarding the regulations, elected to purchase, not EAPCs compliant with UK law but EAPCs broadly in line with EU regulations. I'd like to know why the police continue to use those machines in the face of the full knowledge of the law and the fact that many enthusiasts like yourself believe their EAPCs to be illegal. I suppose I should ask the police directly but you seem to be more knowledgeable on these matters than any man alive so I'm asking you Flecc. How can this situation be explained?
Tom
I'm not getting involved in the debate about the legality, because you both present good cases. However I have to say, the the guidance we've had from actual legal professionals sides with whatt OldTom is suggesting. But it is a grey area until 2016 when things should hopefully clear up. All we're hoping is that there isn't a serious incident involving an eBike that grabs the headlines before that date.
Is there anything to actually back this up? Any statements, letters, emails or anything in writing from the time? Because this would be very useful for everyone.
is there a legal limit to how painfully self promoting a thread can be (this would a good case to actually back it up)?
There are only 6 people reading it and all of you already have eBikes, or a strong idea about the type of bike you'll by next... this really isn't the place to worry about mass marketing.
and if me asking about the liability issues of selling (NOT RIDING) bikes that are over the limits, bothers you, all you have to do is not click the thread.
I'm genuinely interested in the debate that Tom and Flecc are having, because it is important to my business, and also should seem relevant to anyone riding an eBike in the UK.
and all of you already have eBikes, or a strong idea about the type of bike you'll by next... this really isn't the place to worry about mass marketing.and if me asking about the liability issues of selling (NOT RIDING) bikes that are over the limits, bothers you, all you have to do is not click the thread.
I'm genuinely interested in the debate that Tom and Flecc are having, because it is important to my business, and also should seem relevant to anyone riding an eBike in the UK.
Related Articles
-
MTF Enterprises announces acquisition of EMU Electric Bikes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Wisper 806T folding bike wins Which? ‘Best Buy’- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Sustrans calls for protected cycle lanes- Started by: Pedelecs
-
Amazon launch their first UK e-cargo micromobility hub- Started by: Pedelecs
