Liability....

[Wander]

This was about liability, .....

No more posts from us on this topic, until / unless anyone from the trade makes a relevant post about liability.

No! It was also about warranty. In fact YOU mention warranty in posts 1, 6, 10, 27, 31, 41, 48 & 52 of this thread as well as in several other threads.

Then you attempt to close your side of the discussion & conveniently ignore my SINGLE post (#64 above) which calls into question your actions over warranty.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Col, Your worrying about the wrong thing. None of the bikes you sell are legal to use on the road. The scenario you paint could just as easily apply to any ebike with a 250w motor. If somebody on one of your bikes is involved in an accident, who knows what a clever lawyer can do. It makes no difference whether the bike goes over 15 mph or whether it's over 200W or both. The arguments are the same. You should check with your legal department about selling bikes over 200w. I think you will be surprised at what they say. It would be best to keep your mouth shut and your head down because nobody can sort out this mess at the moment.

 

[JohnCade]

Wander.

I would have thought that the OP of a thread knows what his thread is about usually.

I'm not interested in debating the use of the bikes, thats done to death, and people are clearly happy to risk things personally. What I'm trying to understand is how retailers or brands can sell these products, and have they actually sort legal advice before doing so.

Can someone from one the shops or brands that seem happy to sell and explain how to make eBike bikes illegally fast please message me, or ideally post on here so we can all see... how on earth you feel safe doing so.

 

[Wander]

Wander.

I would have thought that the OP of a thread knows what his thread is about usually.

Perhaps not?? He raises issues about warranty in post #1. That is the start point for any debate on an internet forum. Then of course he raises it again in all the posts I have referenced.

Maybe let him answer the points himself??

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

No! It was also about warranty. In fact YOU mention warranty in posts 1, 6, 10, 27, 31, 41 ,48 & 52 of this thread as well as in several other threads.

Then you attempt to close your side of the discussion & conveniently ignore my SINGLE post (#64 above) which calls into question your actions over warranty.

ok, sorry yes, it was about warranty AND liability.

I'm sorry I missed your post, it wasn't ignored, it was missed. So I'm going to reply now, and upset the people who seemed happy to see this actually quite important discussion ended.

Col

If you are so concerned about people invalidating their warranty perhaps you'd like to explain why you uploaded a Bosch dealer service sheet here:-
http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-crank-drive-whining-help-please.16701/#post-205355

particularly bearing in mind whoever suffered the popping noise was almost always within their warranty period & the Bosch manual says:-

Did you ask Bosch before you uploaded that????

we uploaded that file, so people could see how easy it is to fix this simple issue. It can be done by a dealer and they will be credited for their labour time, again something we wanted to show. But its a simple job - it just involves removing the cover and moving the grease around, as Eddie commented himself. However it was for the classic drive - would we post the same again now for the new drives.... probably not. But as its not actually going into the drive in any way, just removing the cover - which is different in our eyes. We've done it a few times for customers and we'd not consider this re-greasing of the drive to be work that would invalidate the warranty.

Hope that clears that up?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Col, Your worrying about the wrong thing. None of the bikes you sell are legal to use on the road. The scenario you paint could just as easily apply to any ebike with a 250w motor. If somebody on one of your bikes is involved in an accident, who knows what a clever lawyer can do. It makes no difference whether the bike goes over 15 mph or whether it's over 200W or both. The arguments are the same. You should check with your legal department about selling bikes over 200w. I think you will be surprised at what they say. It would be best to keep your mouth shut and your head down because nobody can sort out this mess at the moment.

I'm not. Believe me I've looked into this a lot more than any of you - I promise you.

just to prove the pointless nature of your continued attempts to use the grey area surrounding 250w bikes to justify your use of much higher powered bikes. I'll actually use Flecc's previous post on this subject to show why we're comfortable selling 250w bikes. I've used his post, so hopefully you to can just argue amongst yourselves about this.... hopefully in a different thread.

Yes. The UK's EAPC law includes throttle independent control and always has done. The waiver is additional and quite specific as you've seen, it concerns only the permission to have 250 watts power rating. It also stresses that the use of an "off-road" button is definitely not permitted, that expression "off-road" understood to be an additional speed control.

I really don't understand all this silly fuss. Over the years the DfT have stated their intention to adopt 250 watts to harmonise with the EU, the first occasion when I remember them doing that was online in 2005.

Following the acceptance of the EU type approval law in 2003 which exempted 250 watt pedelecs from type approval law as motor vehicles, e-bike manufacturers and importers openly supplied 250 watt rated machines, the DfT always knowing this.

When the status was queried at various times, the DfT statement was always that they would not rule, a case was needed for the courts to give a ruling. Finally the police attempt to bring a case that I mentioned gave that opportunity for the DfT wish to be granted just over a year ago, but as you now know, they blocked that instead. That was because they recognised and acknowledged that the situation was no longer reversible, 250 watts was the de facto standard, regardless of what any court decided.

Since they had accepted the principle of 250 watts, it's acceptance into law was publically stated official policy, and the position on the roads was beyond correction, there was no longer any point in getting the opinion of the judiciary. They had after all held a lengthy public consultation with interested parties, including all members of this forum, on what the provisions of the new 250 watt law should be when it was adopted. Therefore, using the material from that consultation a meeting was convened with the major interested parties at which the waiver for 250 watts was agreed to cover users until the law revision. The only other possible concession at the meeting was that they would consider whether to continue with independent throttle control in the law revision, following the high demand for that facility.

There are reasons why the new law is not yet in place. At the time of the foregoing the EU's own law was in a state of flux, since there were new powered two wheeler classes being introduced and some changes had been made in Germany's S class. In addition the EU parliament had made a recommendation that the pedelec power limit be removed altogether, control being by the 25 kph assist speed limit plus a maximum weight limit. Therefore the DfT were unable to proceed with harmonisation until they knew what they were going to harmonise with.

They have since given a target of 2016 for the introduction of the EU style new UK law, dispensing with the need for the waiver.

Meanwhile internationally respected companies like Bosch, Panasonic and Yamaha continue to supply 250 watt machines to the UK market, knowing that they are immune from any incidental liability due to the additional 50 watt rating, and a number of police forces use 250 watt e-bikes, recognising that they cannot be prosecuted for that. They after all have been in receipt of the DfT direction not to prosecute 250 watt usage! I see no possible justification to question the status of 250 watt e-bikes any more.
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[the_killjoy]

You are obviously going to keep this thread going until everyone agrees with you that there is an implied liability on a seller if the user uses an item for something illegal ~ and this is not going to happen.

 

[derf]

You are obviously going to keep this thread going until everyone agrees with you that there is an implied liability on a seller if the user uses an item for something illegal ~ and this is not going to happen.

that does, however, neatly summarise the gist of this thread. The idea of a world in which objects are only used within explicit legaly defined parameters must please some anal types, but i suggets that we close this thread and go outside for a change..

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I'm not. Believe me I've looked into this a lot more than any of you - I promise you.

just to prove the pointless nature of your continued attempts to use the grey area surrounding 250w bikes to justify your use of much higher powered bikes. I'll actually use Flecc's previous post on this subject to show why we're comfortable selling 250w bikes. I've used his post, so hopefully you to can just argue amongst yourselves about this.... hopefully in a different thread.

I'm not trying to justify anything. Check with your legal department (UK one) about the UK law on 250W motors.
Flecc is incorrect in what he says in that quote. I believe that he has changed his opinion now. There is no waiver and there never has been one. The situation is that we have a sort of immunity from prosecution by the police, but there's no immunity from a civil prosecution, which is the scenario that you're worried about.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

You are obviously going to keep this thread going until everyone agrees with you that there is an implied liability on a seller if the user uses an item for something illegal ~ and this is not going to happen.

no not at all... I was hoping for a response from someone who knows what they are talking about, ie someone else who sells eBikes. Not a load of debate about things that aren't overly relevant. But its got way out of hand, so I've been responding to points. Its not me keeping this thread going, have a look, I'm only replying to points trying to make it clear.

 

[flecc]

This was about liability

But in the course of that, you were the one who incorrectly posted your bikes were legal, thus reintroducing that subject. I merely answered to correct that statement, to prevent others getting the wrong idea from your answer.
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[Wander]

Do not open the drive unit yourself. The drive unit is maintenance-free and may be repaired only through a qualified repair person and only using original spare parts.

This will ensure the safety of the drive unit is maintained. Unauthorised opening of the drive unit will void any and all warranty claims.

But as its not actually going into the drive in any way, just removing the cover - which is different in our eyes.

......... so you don't think 'removing the cover' & exposing the internal gearing is 'opening the drive' then?

Bosch seem to think so as the service sheet you posted specifically says:-

Document the work done in the papers of the customer.
After performing the service activities, please report this to ebike.serviceaktion@de.bosch.com
• Your Magura customer number and the name of your shop
• The frame number of the eBike
(field ID no. in the configuration of the diagnostic device) or
• The serial number of the drive
(Chapter Drive Unit in the service area of the diagnostic device)
Only if a report is submitted to the above-mentioned e-mail address do the guarantee and warranty entitlements for the motor remain valid.

Your interpretation is in stark contrast with the above which says. "Only if a report is submitted to the above-mentioned e-mail address do the guarantee and warranty entitlements for the motor remain valid."

Did you ask Bosch before you uploaded that bosch dealer service sheet????

 

[flecc]

I'm not trying to justify anything. Check with your legal department (UK one) about the UK law on 250W motors.
Flecc is incorrect in what he says in that quote. I believe that he has changed his opinion now. There is no waiver and there never has been one. The situation is that we have a sort of immunity from prosecution by the police, but there's no immunity from a civil prosecution, which is the scenario that you're worried about.

No change of opinion, "some sort of immunity" is just another way of saying waiver* but less correct in your usage, in both cases from police prosecution which I have made clear in my posts on the subject. I have stated that the 200 watts law is unchanged at present but never said that the waiver gives civil immunity.

As my posts in this thread show, I recognise the reality that such a civil action is very unlikely, given all the precedents quoted.

*OED: The waiving of a legal right. i.e: The right of the police to prosecute.


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[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I'm not trying to justify anything. Check with your legal department (UK one) about the UK law on 250W motors.
Flecc is incorrect in what he says in that quote. I believe that he has changed his opinion now. There is no waiver and there never has been one. The situation is that we have a sort of immunity from prosecution by the police, but there's no immunity from a civil prosecution, which is the scenario that you're worried about.

With the grea

......... so you don't think 'removing the cover' & exposing the internal gearing is 'opening the drive' then?

Bosch seem to think so as the service sheet you posted specifically says:-

Your interpretation is in stark contrast with the above which says. "Only if a report is submitted to the above-mentioned e-mail address do the guarantee and warranty entitlements for the motor remain valid."

Did you ask Bosch before you uploaded that bosch dealer service sheet????

the service guide is for the old style Bosch drive. When we posted it, we couldn't find anything on the Bosch information that said doing the work would invalidate the warranty.

The site you're quoting is what is up now, and for the new drives.

Which is why I've said we probably wouldn't post up the same information for the new drive, because Bosch say opening up the new drive invalidates warranty.

So you are comparing information issued at different times, for different products. But I can take it down if it upsets you?

 

[oldtom]

I never realised there were quite so many lawyers in this forum!

If I were to believe some of the received knowledge I have gleaned from this collective of lawyers, then, were I the minister responsible for the Department for Transport, I would have no hesitation in proscribing all EAPCs.

Fortunately, I am not that minister and I wouldn't believe anything said by these 'lawyers', indeed if I read in these pages that the pope is catholic, I'd seek independent professional opinion before accepting that.

Tom

 

[Wander]

the service guide is for the old style Bosch drive. When we posted it, we couldn't find anything on the Bosch information that said doing the work would invalidate the warranty.

The site you're quoting is what is up now, and for the new drives.

Which is why I've said we probably wouldn't post up the same information for the new drive, because Bosch say opening up the new drive invalidates warranty.

So you are comparing information issued at different times, for different products. But I can take it down if it upsets you?

But you are SO wrong.

It is very clear IN THE ACTUAL SHEET YOU POSTED that anyone other than an official dealer opening up the drive then following their official notification policy would invalidate the warranty.

I am not quoting from any site, I am quoting from the Bosch manual supplied when I got my bike (a few weeks before your post) ............. which has a Gen 1 motor.

Looks like it is you who doesn't read the Bosch information properly.

Doesn't upset me & your choice whether you take it down or not. Bosch however don't appear to have put their dealer service sheets into the public domain so you may be upsetting them?

As I've asked twice whether you asked Bosch & you have failed to answer, I take it you didn't then ....

 

[flecc]

I never realised there were quite so many lawyers in this forum!

The law requires that we are all our own lawyers Tom, ignorance of the law being no defence.

Since we cannot possibly have or afford a qualified lawyer with us every second of our conciousness to rule on all our diverse activities, the law clearly requires us to act in that capacity throughout our lives.

And I think you are missing the reality on the electric bike law subject. Go to any solicitor and it is virtually certain that he will not have any clue about it and will have to start reading up on it from scratch. Since the law is scattered across so many acts, many not cross referenced, it is likely, indeed probable, that any advice he gives will have flaws.

In stark contrast, I have been around this subject during the introduction of all those laws, have read them all and memorised most of the detail. I also have a very substantial folder of files on them.

So who do you think is the better qualified to state off-the-cuff what the law says about any aspect of this subject, me or that average solicitor?

Perhaps you are confusing the difference between factually stating what the law says and interpreting it. I do the former, not the latter.
.

 

[oldtom]

The law requires that we are all our own lawyers Tom, ignorance of the law being no defence.

Perhaps you are confusing the difference between factually stating what the law says and interpreting it. I do the former, not the latter.

I wasn't specifically referring to your input Flecc but since you have chosen to respond in such a way that the position is no clearer to me than before, I will say this:

As the UK is fully signed up and committed to Europe-wide common legislation and all my EAPCs conform substantively to relevant European legislation, I take exception to being told (erroneously), not by the DfT or the police, but by certain forum members INTERPRETING the law for their own ends, that my bikes are illegal.

My EAPCs are compliant with current European legislation in exactly the same way as those machines in the hands of several regional police services are legal. Now, because I'm not a lawyer, if I'm wrong about that, then I will hold my hands up when those police procurement officers, Chief Constables, Health and Safety Officers and their lawyers all face prosecution.

Until then, I shall ride my EAPC happy in the knowledge that I'm safe from prosecution, unlike the moronic element of society who ride or drive non-compliant motor vehicles.

The UK law pertaining to EAPCs may remain extant until its replacement by a new description in full accord with EU policy but to all intents and purposes, is redundant. By that I mean that if an EAPC fails to comply with UK legislation but does conform with EU legislation, I would IMAGINE, (I'm not a lawyer remember), that no prosecution would be brought against the owner/rider.

I'm referring specifically to EAPC description conformity and not about any other areas of the RTA which may give rise to a prosecution.

Now, if Trading Standards were to suddenly take an interest in EAPCs and determine that all bikes not in compliance with UK legislation should be excluded from sale, a lot of people would sit up and take notice. That's not going to happen in my opinion for starkly obvious reasons so I take comfort in my view on that rather than feel fearful that I may face prosecution purely because my EAPCs may not comply with UK rules AND ARE THEREFORE ILLEGAL as has been suggested by some.

Of course, as I am not a lawyer, I am guessing about the potential outcome of various scenarios and would never dream of advising anyone based on my opinion or interpretation of any law. Sadly, this thread is actually about a different issue and I apologise to the OP for going off at a tangent.

Tom

 

[JohnCade]

Now, if Trading Standards were to suddenly take an interest in EAPCs and determine that all bikes not in compliance with UK legislation should be excluded from sale, a lot of people would sit up and take notice. That's not going to happen in my opinion for starkly obvious reasons so I take comfort in my view on that rather than feel fearful that I may face prosecution purely because my EAPCs may not comply with UK rules AND ARE THEREFORE ILLEGAL as has been suggested by some.

Of course, as I am not a lawyer, I am guessing about the potential outcome of various scenarios and would never dream of advising anyone based on my opinion or interpretation of any law. Sadly, this thread is actually about a different issue and I apologise to the OP for going off at a tangent.

Tom

Didn't I read here in a similar thread that 50 Cycles was visited by Trading Standards over the BS10 a few months ago? But not because it was not legal to use it on UK roads, but because of the alleged misleading description pertaining to registration. Because it isn't really possible to register one apparently. At least I think that was it.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I take exception to being told (erroneously), not by the DfT or the police, but by certain forum members INTERPRETING the law for their own ends, that my bikes are illegal.

Here it is direct from the DfT. If you write to them, as others have, they will confirm the 200w limit. This is from the UK government that make the laws telling you what they are. You don't have to believe erroneous statements from forum members - especially your own:

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules