Liability....
- Thread starter KTM Bike Industries UK
- Start date
I believe that the whole point being made here, intentionally or otherwise, is customer awareness. Making sure they know what the law is and covering yourself by being able to prove you have done so. Selling a dongle and telling a customer what the limitations of its use and the affect on warrenty should be a given.
Similarly, you sell an ebike to a person that has a child that is under 14 years old. The child uses the bike and is hurt. If you did not tell the customer that use is restricted to 14 years and older then you, as a supplier, would bear some responsibility. However, it is usually the case where ignorance of the law is no excuse and the user is the one that must deal with the brunt of the responsibility.
I feel that KTM has bough a valid point of discussion to this forum and the scope of the response proves its worth with so many veiw points being raised. This is a subject that is not going to go away anytime soon.
Similarly, you sell an ebike to a person that has a child that is under 14 years old. The child uses the bike and is hurt. If you did not tell the customer that use is restricted to 14 years and older then you, as a supplier, would bear some responsibility. However, it is usually the case where ignorance of the law is no excuse and the user is the one that must deal with the brunt of the responsibility.
I feel that KTM has bough a valid point of discussion to this forum and the scope of the response proves its worth with so many veiw points being raised. This is a subject that is not going to go away anytime soon.
why would they be mad?? Have they something to hide? Its a point that should be being discussed and isn't. Why have these conversations in private, do you as an end consumer not want to know whats going on??
So we've put our head above the wall, and we can see no reason why others shouldn't want to discuss this issue.
So I ask again, why would they be mad??
Col
You are starting to come across as a single issue poster, trying to make a case for the same old issue coming from a number of different angles.
If you are so concerned about people invalidating their warranty perhaps you'd like to explain why you uploaded a Bosch dealer service sheet here:-
http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-crank-drive-whining-help-please.16701/#post-205355
particularly bearing in mind whoever suffered the popping noise was almost always within their warranty period & the Bosch manual says:-
You are starting to come across as a single issue poster, trying to make a case for the same old issue coming from a number of different angles.
If you are so concerned about people invalidating their warranty perhaps you'd like to explain why you uploaded a Bosch dealer service sheet here:-
http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/bosch-crank-drive-whining-help-please.16701/#post-205355
particularly bearing in mind whoever suffered the popping noise was almost always within their warranty period & the Bosch manual says:-
Did you ask Bosch before you uploaded that????
Here's my reason Col. If I was still in the trade and was wondering whether to sell the bikes in question, the last thing I would do is ask legal or any other advice, since the lawyers answer would always be the safest, "Don't".
If I did make the mistake of asking, the last thing I would do is publically declare that fact, since it would then be ammunition for the wily lawyers you linked to. They could argue that you had been advised not to but had recklessly gone ahead anyway.
I'm sure those considerations will prevent others from responding as you've asked.
Instead of any of the above, I would just do as I've indicated, be satisfied that this is a user liability matter only as proven by so many other examples, many of which I've given above.
.
That is solely about safety and not legality, so it's hardly relevant to the S class e-bikes which are produced for safe road and off-road use within the EU and elsewhere. They comply with the EU wide L1e class and conform to all the safety requirements of that class.
That the UK doesn't implement the regulatory order to permit their usage here does not affect their intrinsic safety.
.
As I read it Col has concerns and followed the wise advice given in the above guidance.
"If you think you’re at risk, take advice from your business adviser or solicitor. Your trade association may also be able to give you information about standards and best practice in your industry"
Unlike some traders his Company is a member of BEBA and has a responsibility to adhere to the code of practice in the hope of presenting a sable industry and earning continuing user confidence in the product.
"If you think you’re at risk, take advice from your business adviser or solicitor. Your trade association may also be able to give you information about standards and best practice in your industry"
Unlike some traders his Company is a member of BEBA and has a responsibility to adhere to the code of practice in the hope of presenting a sable industry and earning continuing user confidence in the product.
Col, Are all the bikes you sell at present legal to use on the road in the UK?
Currently to the best of my knowledge and with the advise we have, yes all are legal as they are sold to our dealers. How they leave the store isn't something we can monitor exactly.
I personaly can't see it being a problem if or until pedlecs become a problem like the scourge of incicidents involving mini-motos which can only cost from £100 or so - which were a bit more obvious by their appearance, sound and their cheap relative availibilty compared to push bike derived electric bikes.
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/mini-moto-police-ops-rev-up-4219875
If pedlecs wether restricted or not get into the dabblers of teens and begin to be ridden recklessly in public that's when IMHO problems will begin.
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/mini-moto-police-ops-rev-up-4219875
If pedlecs wether restricted or not get into the dabblers of teens and begin to be ridden recklessly in public that's when IMHO problems will begin.
Actually they are not of course. They do not have the required plate affixed to the frame in an easily viewed position displaying the motor rated wattage, the battery voltage and the e-bikes weight.
It should also be remembered that for more than a decade almost all e-bike sellers have been selling illegal e-bikes, not only because they lacked that plate but because they were illegally powered with a 250 watts rating.
The position of all those e-bike sellers was no different to all the others who sell potentially or always illegal to use in the UK items, such as over 12 lbs pressure rated air rifles, shotguns, mini-motos and unapproved quad bikes, powered pavement scooters, Segways, radio comms devices with illegal transmission ratings or using unauthorised frequencies, bicycles without bells fitted, and of course S class e-bikes.
So as per those examples, since KTM UK are already selling illegal e-bikes, adding S class e-bikes does not present a new problem.
.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
So KTMs are slow, illegal, and if you accidentally crush a grape on one Col's company is sued for millions.
No wonder he's worried.
Psssst! Anyone want to buy a 1700 Watt vacuum cleaner?
Edit. If you suck the cat up into the dust bag, you're on your own. No responsibility accepted here.
Edit. If you suck the cat up into the dust bag, you're on your own. No responsibility accepted here.
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oh god... you guys do love going round in circles don't you.
We're not interested in debating what is or isn't illegal, or how you want to convince yourselves your safe to use your bike as an individual.
Flecc you even now appear to be arguing with yourself about what it currently legally ok to use on the UK roads.
This was about liability, and if you can't see that the current speed and power limits are in place... BECAUSE of safety, then you're completely missing the point of this whole topic. There are a few who can see what I'm talking about, but I'm afraid the usual suspects are obsessed with the wrong details.
Its not about prosecution, its not even about you as individuals.
I'll give up... This forum clearly isn't the place to have a logical discussion with others about liability, the discussion keeps returning to legality, which is not the same thing.
No more posts from us on this topic, until / unless anyone from the trade makes a relevant post about liability.
Thanks for your input.
We're not interested in debating what is or isn't illegal, or how you want to convince yourselves your safe to use your bike as an individual.
Flecc you even now appear to be arguing with yourself about what it currently legally ok to use on the UK roads.
This was about liability, and if you can't see that the current speed and power limits are in place... BECAUSE of safety, then you're completely missing the point of this whole topic. There are a few who can see what I'm talking about, but I'm afraid the usual suspects are obsessed with the wrong details.
Its not about prosecution, its not even about you as individuals.
I'll give up... This forum clearly isn't the place to have a logical discussion with others about liability, the discussion keeps returning to legality, which is not the same thing.
No more posts from us on this topic, until / unless anyone from the trade makes a relevant post about liability.
Thanks for your input.
for what its worth, I completely and unreservedly support your decision to shut up (and will hold you liable for it)
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