Liability....

[EddiePJ]

I think it's blindingly obvious that both companies will know of the existence and use of such devices. That neither have made any public statement about them I think indicates that they prefer to keep quiet rather than affect sales to the large numbers who wish to tune in such ways.
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Silly me. And there I was in the mistaken belief that manufacturers don't like being slated by the end user when things break. I guess that warranty claims are good for business.

 

[flecc]

So many lawyers!

Tom

Tom, while I sympathise with your views on legality and ride only legal e-bikes myself, one doesn't have to be a lawyer to see a fundamental flaw in the thinking of so many opposed to illegal e-bikes. There often seems to be an assumption that if the law has nothing to say about something, it must be illegal.

That of course is the opposite of the truth, which is that anything the law does not provide for in any way is automatically legal until the law says different. That's why invention is possible without fear of legal action.
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[Deleted member 4366]

The sooner the authorities start clamping down on the criminal element who ride illegal bikes the better. There is no, absolutely never, any excuse for breaking very reasonable laws.

Tom

Thanks so much. I had a really good belly laugh that has probably extended my life by several minutes.

Time to take yourself off to jail for riding an illegal bike then. See ya!

 

[flecc]

Silly me. And there I was in the mistaken belief that manufacturers don't like being slated by the end user when things break. I guess that warranty claims are good for business.

This doesn't apply though, does it. The e-bikes we are speaking of are also supplied as S versions doing those UK illegal assist speeds up to 45 kph, so clearly they are designed to do it without undue warranty claims.

The issue with these is solely one of the illegal use on the roads and not a technical one.
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[crE]

Customer: Can I kill someone with these knives you're selling?

Shopkeeper: Yes quite easily, but it is illegal.

Customer: Thanks. I'll take three.

 

[flecc]

Customer: Can I kill someone with these knives you're selling?

Shopkeeper: Yes quite easily, but it is illegal.

Customer: Thanks. I'll take three.

Exactly crE, a case where the sale of items that can very rarely be legally carried in public is not illegal in itself.

Knives have been used to commit countless murders, but no supplier has ever been pursued at law for the consequences of such use, even where the type of knife had no legitimate use.
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[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Can we please stop with the debate amoungst the same people about the same things. That wasnt my point in this thread.

I posted to ask anyone who sells these bikes or dongles to post if they do so blindly or with some legal backing.

The best i was hoping for was thay someone would have a statement along the lines of one I can see flecc posted a couple of years ago

Reasons: To have proof of warning the unaware attracted to such a model that they are illegal on the road. To show that the trader respects the law and does not wish it to be broken. To try to put off those who think of illegal use by making them think about the issues involved.

But it seems no one from the trade is saying anything yet on here. Will be interesting to see if it gets any replies.

I would love to see websites that say:

Using this will invalidate your warranty,
Or this bike can not be used legally on or offroad in the Uk.

 

[trex]

here you go, on the woosh home page, two third down, in the frequently asked questions:

http://wooshbikes.co.uk

Can I derestrict your electric bikes?

No, it will void your warranty.
Also, if you derestrict your bike, you need to get it registered as an electric moped, attach a number plate, get a free tax disc, have it MOT'd, only ride it on roads (not cycle lanes or paths) and also wear a helmet.
If someone decides to report you for riding a derestricted bike on the roads without it being registered or without insurance and helmet, you will most likely lose your driving licence.

 

[flecc]

here you go, on the woosh home page, two third down, in the frequently asked questions:

http://wooshbikes.co.uk

50cycles likewise publish this restriction against the high speed models:

"TYPE APPROVAL CLASSIFICATION L1e light moped. To use this bicycle on a public road the user must first register it, fit a registration plate and then tax and insure it. Registration plate holder can be removed in those territories where these restrictions do not apply."
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[Sacko]

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/how-to-derestrict-a-yamaha-ebike-speed-tuning-dongles/

3rd paragraph down.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I will have another nose at people's websites when I get back into work.

It is interesting to see what others have put in their small print. If we do decide to offer the unrestricted bikes to uk market it would not be in the small print.

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/blog/post/how-to-derestrict-a-yamaha-ebike-speed-tuning-dongles/

3rd paragraph down.

It's statements like that, that concern us.

It's says:

Where can I use the Speed Tuning Kit?
Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only.

Which is not correct. They are just as illegal Offroad. Bridal ways and towpaths are actually likely to be sources of the biggest problems for eBikes .

Also there is no mention on there about the dongle invalidating your warranty.

 

[flecc]

This statement is technically not erroneous though:

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only."

Nowhere does it say off-road usage is legal, that is only an implication in the mind of the reader.

I understand your position though, I daresay you would prefer this wording:

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only in circumstances where such usage is legal."

Personally I think it best merely to state what the UK law is, and not make any statement about other possible usage, since that intrudes into very murky legal territory.
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[the_killjoy]

If we go back to the comparison with the mini motors, surely the dealer is only liable if they have made a statement to the effect that they are road legal.

There are a large number of items which one can sell that have legal restrictions as to where they are used, shotguns anyone, without the dealer being responsible for their illegal public use.


The question of warranty is totally separate and is a civil matter governed by contact law.

 

[flecc]

If we go back to the comparison with the mini motors, surely the dealer is only liable if they have made a statement to the effect that they are road legal.

There are a large number of items which one can sell that have legal restrictions as to where they are used, shotguns anyone, without the dealer being responsible for their illegal public use.

Absolutely, a retailer cannot make assumptions as to usage and proving any liability at court would at the very minimum entail proof that the retailer knew that the item would be used illegally.
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[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Absolutely, a retailer cannot make assumptions as to usage and proving any liability at court would at the very minimum entail proof that the retailer knew that the item would be used illegally.
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We and any of the other brands selling these products... know they are going to be used illegally. I couldn't stand up in court and say, that I thought the bikes we sell are being used on private estates, because they aren't.

So i'm pretty confident we're not going to make the KTM s class bikes available in the UK. Don't think its worth the risk to us, our dealers, our customers or also the future sales of eBikes here, as I'm sure that the de restricted ones are going to be the cause of all the negative press that eBikes are going to get over the next couple of years as the're useage grows.

We and all the other brands are pushing the concept hard in the cycling and main stream media, and as such its not going to be a little niche anymore. People will know what they are, and we want to make sure that they are seen for what they are, pedelecs, and not electric motorbikes.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

This statement is technically not erroneous though:

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only."

Nowhere does it say off-road usage is legal, that is only an implication in the mind of the reader.

I understand your position though, I daresay you would prefer this wording:

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only in circumstances where such usage is legal."

Personally I think it best merely to state what the UK law is, and not make any statement about other possible usage, since that intrudes into very murky legal territory.
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sorry missed this post.

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for off road use only."

it should say.

"Obviously the UK law states that eBikes should only be assisted to 15mph. Therefore the speed tuning kit is strictly for private land use only."

offroad is just the same as onroad in the eyes of the law... so that needs changing in this example. you can use it on private roads and private land. So the split is the private bit, not the on or offroad bit.

 

[the_killjoy]

That is your commercial decision, you were asking about the legal position, not the moral one.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

ok, I've just had a re-read though things and I should probably point out we're not worried about prosecution, its the liability that concerns us. This seems to have been lost in the debate a bit.

My concern is that it'll be an insurance company that comes after us, claiming for damages because their client has been involved in an accident involving an eBike that they shouldn't legally have been allowed to be using on the roads. Or their client has been hit by said eBike, or involved in an accident caused by the eBike.

Say, a de restricted eBike causes a horse to bolt on a bridleway and the rider is injured and forced to take a few weeks off work. Their insurance company is going to go hunting for someone to blame. This is what I'm worried about, not prosecution.

Is that a bit clearer?

 

[wissy]

Don't KTM have lawyers they can ask for clarification? i don't understand why you worry so much about ypur competitors

It does come across as if you are using the 'dongle' or S class issue as an excuse to slate your competition? Not saying you are doing this but it gives that impression. Perhaps they are using a bit of entrepreneurial spirit to provide a market for dongles but so are people in Germany and on ebay etc. There seems to be a growth market for the S pedelecs here (am I right?) and I was wondering if KTMs uK strategy was being reconsidered because of this niche market and a fear of falling behind the competition?

 

[flecc]

We and any of the other brands selling these products... know they are going to be used illegally.

But this simply isn't true Col, you cannot be certain they are to be used illegally. We have a number of members who pop their e-bikes into their motor caravans or on the back of their cars and leave the country.

Just two examples of well known personalities in here, there are many others:

Lynda uses her caravan loaded with her e-bike in this way. I know she goes to her holiday home in Spain, but retailers cannot know that, especially if the transaction is online.

EddieO does similar, loading two e-bikes into his motor caravan for many holidays abroad, and as a German speaker is often in that country where S class e-bikes can be legally used at up to 45 kph and with 500 watt ratings. He's bought e-bikes here and in Germany. So once again neither you nor any other retailer can make an assumption regarding illegal use.

That there are such legal usages of UK illegal e-bikes destroys any chance of a successful liability action in court taken against a retailer.

P.S. This also forms a reply to your last post.
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