Liability....

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Can someone from one the shops or brands that seem happy to sell and explain how to make eBike bikes illegally fast please message me, or ideally post on here so we can all see... how on earth you feel safe doing so.

Our business advice is that should any of the bikes we sell be involved in an accident, should the bike be found to be an illegal road vehicle the owner of the bike could be liable in many ways, and the dealer they bought it from and we inturn could be also be found liable. So we have to have a very clear policy in all forms of communication that we don't recommend de-restricting the eBikes and we don't even know how to do it.

My other concern is how some dealers sell Dongles for Bosch bikes and claim it has no impact on warranty. When Bosch themselves say if you use one, it voids everything. So is this a case of clear miss selling of the dongle, or as the dealer selling the dongle are you taking on the warranty and not going to bother Bosch with it... or are you going to try to hide from Bosch the fact a dongle has been used.

I'm confused by the attitude of some retailers / brands to this, and would really like an open discussion as to the confidence the retailers / brands have that they are not liable should their be an expensive legal case.

So can I ask directly. Have any of you taken legal advice on your liability should one of your customers be involved in a serious accident whilst using a bike that you've either sold in an illegal state, or advised on how to make it illegal.

I'm not interested in debating the use of the bikes, thats done to death, and people are clearly happy to risk things personally. What I'm trying to understand is how retailers or brands can sell these products, and have they actually sort legal advice before doing so.

 

[Emo Rider]

Well said!

 

[flecc]

I don't support the use of higher than legal speeds on e-bikes and am happy with the current assist speed restriction. However, there are many precedents for the sale of vehicles which are illegal on our roads, simply because such a sale is entirely legal in itself. The same goes for modification items, the sale of which is entirely legal.

To the best of my knowledge no retailer or other supplier has ever been prosecuted concerning the outcome of any accident in this connection and I disagree with anyone who says they have any liability. Clearly neither the police nor the CPS can launch a prosecution, so any attempt would have to be private, presumably by an insurance company.

No insurance company would do so, knowing the very high costs of bringing such a "duty of care" based action and the certainty of losing and having to pay their own and the defendants costs.

And here is why no court could rule for the plaintiff. If they did, it would be a defining of the law which would make all suppliers of any vehicles which could exceed all UK legal speed limits potentially liable. That is effectively the same thing, supplying a vehicle which can be used illegally on our roads.
.

 

[jackhandy]

What is this doing on a users' forum?

Contact your dealers in the proper way _ by written communication. Then you'll know exactly where you, your company and your dealers stand.

Tub-thumping on here is totally unprofessional and just makes you look a bit of a twit...
Not for the first time, either.

 

[JohnCade]

And here is why no court could rule for the plaintiff. If they did, it would be a defining of the law which would make all suppliers of any vehicles which could exceed all UK legal speed limits potentially liable. That is effectively the same thing, supplying a vehicle which can be used illegally on our roads.
.

But isn't there a difference between selling a vehicle capable of exceeding the speed limit but which is legal to use on the road, and selling one which is not legal to use on the road at all however fast it's being ridden at any one time.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

And here is why no court could rule for the plaintiff. If they did, it would be a defining of the law which would make all suppliers of any vehicles which could exceed all UK legal speed limits potentially liable. That is effectively the same thing, supplying a vehicle which can be used illegally on our roads.
.

Thats not the case though is it.

because as has been debated many many times. Its possible to use a car in an illegal manor by driving over the speed limit. But its possible to use it legally. The choice is with the owner.

Selling an illegal eBike. Lets say a S Pedelec, with the 45kph motor can not be used in the UK in any way legally, on or offroad at all. You can't even register it so it can be used legally anywhere.

Or lets look at the Bosch dongle it serves no purpose other than to de restrict an ebike. So thats not like speeding in your car. Thats like taking your lorry and removing the 56mph speed restriction thats on it. Very different should you be involved in a crash.

Anyway, thats all aside from my point.

My question is if any of the sellers on here have actually sort legal advice before punting on these products.

And an aside what are they going to do if the member of the public has a warranty on their bosch bike that isn't now valid because of the dongle thats been fitted, when the dealer said "it doesn't impact warranty"

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

What is this doing on a users' forum?

this is an eBike forum, I wasn't aware it was just for end level consumers, as many in the trade use it for discussions. Its an open question that I feel many end consumers would benefit from some clarity on

Contact your dealers in the proper way _ by written communication. Then you'll know exactly where you, your company and your dealers stand.

I know where we stand, and I know where our dealers stand. Thats not what I'm asking. We now make s Class pedelecs, so we can sell them into the UK. What I'm trying to find out is why we're strongly advised not to, but others seem happy to. Am I asking the wrong legal advice, or am I simply the only person to have actually asked before selling these products?

Tub-thumping on here is totally unprofessional and just makes you look a bit of a twit...
Not for the first time, either.

bit of a twit, I can cope with unprofessional also I can cope with. But I don't see how either of them are relevant to this topic.

 

[flecc]

But isn't there a difference between selling a vehicle capable of exceeding the speed limit but which is legal to use on the road, and selling one which is not legal to use on the road at all however fast it's being ridden at any one time.

A response I was expecting so was not disappointed.

In answer to yourself and KTM, no, the issue is just one of whether something can be used illegally when it can be legally sold.

Whether it can be used legally in any other circumstance is immaterial and a different matter. That is a separate usage permission in law, unconnected with the sale of an item.

As said, there has never been such a case despite illegal-to-use vehicles being involved in a variety of accidents and even fatalities. I maintain that is simply because such a case could not succeed.

To KTM: Yes, a 45 kph e-bike can be used legally off-road if on privately owned land not accessible for public use. Suppliers of such vehicles do not need to seek legal advice, what they are doing is not illegal so carries no recognised legal liability. That does not prevent a private prosecution of course, but as said, I don't see that ever happening.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I do see what you're saying.

But can you give me any other example of a vehicle that can be sold in the uk, but not legally used? You've mentioned cases. What type of vehicle was involved?

We had a 12 hour drive back from Eurobike yesterday and couldn't think of one.

Which is why there is no case history.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Ok flecc.

Let me rephrase this. I'm not looking to debate the legal issues again. I was simply asking 2 questions

1) has anyone else sought legal advice

Because I for one wouldn't be risking the sustainability of my company on a "flecc on the Internet said it'd be fine"

And

2) if you sell dongles that void warranties on bikes like the ktms we sell. Why don't you tell your customers?

 

[flecc]

Mini-moto bikes have been involved in accidents and I remember one case of a fatality when one went under another vehicle a few years back when they were at the height of their popularity. Their usage has been raised in Parliament and the police have acted by seizing and crushing the offending vehicles, something that can also apply to illegally used vehicles which can be legally used, once more defining no difference in the two cases.

No supplier I know of has ever been prosecuted or sued over any consequential use of vehicles illegal to use on the roads.
.

 

[flecc]

Ok flecc.

Let me rephrase this. I'm not looking to debate the legal issues again. I was simply asking 2 questions

1) has anyone else sought legal advice

Because I for one wouldn't be risking the sustainability of my company on a "flecc on the Internet said it'd be fine"

And

2) if you sell dongles that void warranties on bikes like the ktms we sell. Why don't you tell your customers?

I would never want to stop anyone seeking legal advice, but if sought, be aware that on any ill-defined issue the advice will always be "Don't", the play-safe response. The fact that might be commercially poor advice won't deter any solicitor.

As for (2), the trade issue, as said, I don't support the use of illegal assist speeds.
.

 

[EddiePJ]

As dongles are being openly supplied and fitted by a dealer, It would be interesting to see how both say Haibike and Bosch, or even Yamaha would answer the question of dongles and warranties if it was offered jointly up to the said companies. It appears that Bosch are clear enough in their T&C, so the reaction may not be so favourable from them. I'd certainly want to look further into warranty claims if I were Bosch, particularly if the claims perhaps come regularly from one bike manufacturer and their dealership.

Food for thought.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Surely, it's no different to selling a legal car. Then the owner goes and gets the ECU remapped so that the power goes up be 30% or more. The car then effectively becomes uninsured and untaxed makinging it's use completely illegal. Just about every guy below 30 in our road has had it done, but no dealer or garage has ever been prosecuted.

 

[flecc]

If it was emailed to them both jointly, It would be interesting to see how both say Haibike and Bosch would answer the question of dongles and warranties, if it was offered up to both companies.

Food for thought.

I think it's blindingly obvious that both companies will know of the existence and use of such devices. That neither have made any public statement about them I think indicates that they prefer to keep quiet rather than affect sales to the large numbers who wish to tune in such ways.
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[nashdm2]

Hi Col, what has driven you to ask this? Has there been bad event of some kind?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Yes, see the Electric Mountain Bike thread. Poor old Col is losing sales because he's sticking to his moral principles. It must hurt.

 

[oldtom]

So many lawyers!

Tom

 

[oldtom]

The sooner the authorities start clamping down on the criminal element who ride illegal bikes the better. There is no, absolutely never, any excuse for breaking very reasonable laws.

Tom

 

[derf]

Thats not the case though is it.

because as has been debated many many times. Its possible to use a car in an illegal manor by driving over the speed limit. But its possible to use it legally. The choice is with the owner.

Selling an illegal eBike. Lets say a S Pedelec, with the 45kph motor can not be used in the UK in any way legally, on or offroad at all. You can't even register it so it can be used legally anywhere.

Or lets look at the Bosch dongle it serves no purpose other than to de restrict an ebike. So thats not like speeding in your car. Thats like taking your lorry and removing the 56mph speed restriction thats on it. Very different should you be involved in a crash.

Anyway, thats all aside from my point.

My question is if any of the sellers on here have actually sort legal advice before punting on these products.

And an aside what are they going to do if the member of the public has a warranty on their bosch bike that isn't now valid because of the dongle thats been fitted, when the dealer said "it doesn't impact warranty"

I wish a moderator would sensor this kind of commercial self promotion on the forum, it doesn't add, a thing, to my experience of e bikes..