Legality of power ratings

meman

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I'm in the process of considering an e-bike conversion & have been reading up as much as I can. I came across the thread from 2012 discussing the UK law & power ratings of motors.
I'm no expert but I think some are confusing the power rating of the motor with power consumption. Someone said that their 250 watt rated motor was reading 620 watts on the 'Cycle Analyst' display when they were going up hill using maximum power setting. As I understand it (40 years after leaving school where I should have learnt it!) the 620 on the readout was the consumption rate of the available power. A 36 volt X 10Ah battery = 360 watt hours of available energy so a reading of 620 indicates that that level of power consumption could be available for just 35 minutes. Remember there is a huge difference between maintaining a steady slow speed on the level, and climbing a hill quickly - try doing it without a bike! As a sufferer of ME / post viral fatigue I'm very aware that the weaker you are, the more noticeable the difference in energy requirement is between say, level walking & uphill running. The same applies to motors; a low voltage motor may not be able to drive up more than a gentle gradient but be capable of sustaining some distance on the level - think mobility scooters and vintage cars. A powerful modern car might be capable of spectacular acceleration and pulling power but it will not go further because it uses up more of its stored energy in the fuel tank.
 
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The motor rating doesn't mean much. We now have a 25A version of the 250W Bafang BBS01. 25a x 40v = 1000w.
 

Alan Quay

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You are forgetting that E-bike power is governed by an overriding and universal physical law: Power cannot exceed 250W.

It acts a bit like the speed of light, a restriction which cannot be exceeded.

It's easy to prove mathematically:

25 x 40 = 250

(Smiley face, winking)
 
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flecc

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The consumption is often expressed as Gross Power, the actual work output as Net Power. Motor efficiencies vary, but the net power at the wheel is generally about 75% of the gross.

So that 620 watts example you quote will give a little over 400 watts of power onto the road.
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jonathan75

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You're quite right meman -people do confuse the two: our only legal duty, to my knowledge, is to use in public spaces, only those motors rated at 250w or lower by the manufacturer. This means simply that the manufacturer has to declare it capable of 250w or less (their duty is to not overstate, rather than to not understate the power). The fact it is capable of much more does not appear to be of any legal significance!
 
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trex

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The motor rating doesn't mean much. We now have a 25A version of the 250W Bafang BBS01. 25a x 40v = 1000w.
They are labelled 500W, presumably 50% wasted in heat.
Apparently you can now buy 8-Fun BBS01 on aliexpress without the 8-Fun marking. Those are obviously more legal than the ones marked as BBS02 36V 25A 500W
 
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They are labelled 500W, presumably 50% wasted in heat.
Apparently you can now buy 8-Fun BBS01 on aliexpress without the 8-Fun marking. Those are obviously more legal than the ones marked as BBS02 36V 25A 500W
No, they're not labelled 500w. They're labelled 25A 250w.
 

anotherkiwi

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Will it take 48V (1200W)?
 

mfj197

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The motor rating doesn't mean much. We now have a 25A version of the 250W Bafang BBS01. 25a x 40v = 1000w.
Really? Where from? I only know of the 15A 250W ones, the 18A 350W ones and some early ones labelled 250W 18A. The 250 and 350 are the same unit with different programming. Mind you, I know some are starting to ship with a proper seal on the non-chainring side instead of the plastic washer to prevent water ingress.

Michael
 
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Errrrrr, Bafang?



Posted on Endless-sphere:
by tahustvedt » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:40 am

Custom adapted by Bafang for a norwegian distributor to perform the same as Bosch, Yamaha and Impulse "250 W" motors. It's limited to 15 A PAS, but the limit is raised to 25 A when a thumb throttle is pressed (which only works while pedaling).
 

mfj197

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It's a BBS02 but I didn't know they made any marked as 250W. The standard 250W BBS01 already has more pull than the Bosch or Yamaha units (don't know about Impulse). Good to see they are continuing to develop these motors.
 

trex

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that motor is an OEM job. If the OEM specifies 25A 250W then the factory produces exactly for that specs and marks the motor exactly as the OEM asked. It's the responsibility of the OEM to restrict what to send to that motor.
 

tongxinpete

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The 250 watt is a continuous rating on the motor, it can most likely run at 500w or so for a short term while climbing a hill but could not stand this all day - hence it is a 250w. Heinzmann quote wattage ratings for time periods - eg 30 mins, 5 mins, & 30 seconds.
In practice no one will ever check if you convert a bike yourself for your own use. A much bigger consideration is the terrain you will be riding (tough hills, moderate hills, or pretty flat like Norfolk & South Lincs) I would select my motor & battery system from this
 

flecc

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Right but that continuous rating is a minimum, not a maximum, or?
The law says it's the maximum.

I don't agree with the conjectures that the higher figure is a short term rating, the issue is not that simple. Many of these "legal" hub motors are capable of running continuously without harm at well over the 250 watts rating. And I'm sure they can do that for the whole capacity of their battery, which is what counts in this respect of legality.

These higher powers came about through necessity, early true 200 and 250 watt motors being useless, prompting makers to stretch the interpretation. This just became a fait accompli over time, withthe EU technical requirement for testing making due allowance for that.
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jonathan75

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Some law, which is so universally flouted! :)

I think the real thing to have a look at is the new directive, as if the UK legislation doesn't implement it properly then the offending section of the latter can be set aside just like that, shazam.

Edit - I think this is the case anyway.
 

flecc

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Some law, which is so universally flouted! :)

I think the real thing to have a look at is the new directive, as if the UK legislation doesn't implement it properly then the offending section of the latter can be set aside just like that, shazam.

Edit - I think this is the case anyway.
In a sense the law is possibly being met, since there's a choice of how to test. One method inherently has room to get higher powers to pass, which is what I meant by "making due allowance".

I think we are adopting EN15194 which includes that testing method.

The national element comes into this, the very similar Japanese pedelec law has much stricter requirements to meet the 250 watts.

Personally I think lattitude is often sensible in laws relating to technical matters, since legislators are not designers, the latter better placed to know what is needed.
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anotherkiwi

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Nor engineers and often not even users. In my book the latter is problem. We saw what happened when the judge knew a little about computers and programming in SCO vs IBM... Even a lot of "experts" are not users...
 
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Some law, which is so universally flouted! :)
The law isn't being flouted. People are trying to interpret in in the way they think it's written, not the way it's actually written. It allows any motor that's rated at 250w continuous output. The three key words are "rated", "continuous" and "output".

If a Bafang engineer or any other person authorised and qualified to give a motor a rating decides to rate a motor at 250w continuous output for whatever reason, then it's allowed. Noone has to flout the law.
 
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mike killay

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I may be quite wrong, but I get the impression that it is in fact the controller, not the motor that is important.
A controller set to deliver no more than 7 amps at 36 volts will allow the motor to develop 252 watts.
Up the amps and the wattage goes up.
There is no such thing as a 250 watt motor, simply a motor that will not burn out if run at 250 watts indefinitely.
 
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