Legality of having a switch to meet 250w regulations

Interesting post, I subscribe.

I would add the following:

According to the thread about SELs I have also opened in this forum, Barcelona regulations require that max speed is 25km/h "limited by construction of the bike".

The issue is where "by construction" means. It seems quite obvious that having a 3-speed switch at the handlebar is not "by construction", since the biker can select that at will while pedalling.

However, let us assume the bike has a closed box (with a cover screwed firmly, not allowing access from the outside unless the cover is unscrewed), not accessible by the biker when biking. And there is a 3-speed switch there, which is always limited to 25km/h.

Only when the biker unscrews the cover, he is allowed to change those settings.

I guess that would be legal, right? Since I guess most limitations "by construction" in fact could be changed if one opened the motor / controller and "changed something".

A "dirty mind" could think about leaving a small hole in the box, hidden (for ventilation purposes / allowing the cables to get in and out), and a finger could be inserted and the switch be operated.

Don't know, and AFAIK hasn't been tested by a case yet.

But, I would think any such switch would have to be unaccessible during normal use of the bike, if a savvy hofficer o't law were to check.

Not that anyone known to me has such a switch - obviously

What is the legality of having a switch to meet 250w regulations on a higher powered motor, ie an on/off road switch or programmed selectable PAS settings?

In UK law:

A. the higher powered motor is illegal.

B. the switch is illegal.

In UK law:

 

A. the higher powered motor is illegal.

B. the switch is illegal.

A. is semantics, due to imprecise method of measuring motor power

B. what happens if there is no switch and still easy to fit a dongle (eg Bosch)?

Should riders with dongle be fined for uncivic behaviour?

Most female riders are probably happy with 15mph but most males under 70 are capable of cycling unassisted faster than that on flat roads. Should they be criminalized for removing the restriction?

A. is semantics, due to imprecise method of measuring motor power

B. what happens if there is no switch and still easy to fit a dongle (eg Bosch)?

 

Should riders with dongle be fined for uncivic behaviour?

 

Most female riders are probably happy with 15mph but most males under 70 are capable of cycling unassisted faster than that on flat roads. Should they be criminalized too for removing the restriction?

The law is the law.

Should you choose to ignore it you would be riding an illegal motorized vehicle and will be prosecuted the same as if you were driving an uninsured car.

You would be guilty of the same offence, these are the facts of the matter, if you want to discuss what ifs then carry on the thread on that basis.

Edited March 12, 201412 yr by shemozzle999

The motor has to be labelled as a 250W one by the manufacturer. You can run it at whatever power you want, so Ezee and Bafang 2500W CST/BPMs are the best candidates.

The speed limit is 25 km/h. Any accessible switch is not allowed. Speedict had the best solution, where their microprocessor had a legal speed and other parameters pre-programmed into it, which could be activated by bluetooth remotely from your phone. Nobody would know that you changed anything because the Speedict device is not physically accessible, and it has no screen to see what settings it has. I'm not sure how well it works. I think they fixed most problems.

Statement by the DfT on 24-4-13:

"The use of an "Off Road Button" however is strictly forbidden now and is specifically mentioned in documents appertaining to new and existing guidelines."

Therefore any speed or power switching is illegal under any circumstance, whether directly under rider control or not.

we are not arguing about a physical button to derestrict a bike.

Take the case of the popular LCD on ezee, kudos, woosh bikes etc.

It's not a button, so is the bike legal when it's sold?

shemozzle?

we are not arguing about a physical button to derestrict a bike.

Take the case of the popular LCD on ezee, kudos, woosh bikes etc.

It's not a button, so is the bike legal when it's sold?

shemozzle?

Not a question for me, suggest you ask ezee, kudos and woosh bikes.

I thought that would be the case I just seem to often come across high powered e-bikes with the option of switching to low power mode to use on road, several recent concept bikes seem to be copying the same idea.

But in reality a lot of the speed controllers come with a plug that does the same job at least as far as speed is concerned, same for the service mode adjustments on the displays, so it looks like nearly all e-bikes could be called illegal?

we are not arguing about a physical button to derestrict a bike.

Take the case of the popular LCD on ezee, kudos, woosh bikes etc.

My guess is that those are legal when set to legality, on the basis that the alteration is achieved by reprogramming the software rather than simple two mode switching.

Such reprogramming is also possible using connectors for that purpose on some crank units.

I thought that would be the case I just seem to often come across high powered e-bikes with the option of switching to low power mode to use on road, several recent concept bikes seem to be copying the same idea.

 

But in reality a lot of the speed controllers come with a plug that does the same job at least as far as speed is concerned, same for the service mode adjustments on the displays, so it looks like nearly all e-bikes could be called illegal?

I agree. Almost all the bikes with LED display units cannot control their speed, all the bikes with Chinese LCDs are easy to set to higher speed, all the Bosch bikes only need a Badass dongle.

The impression I get is manufacturers are not too keen enforcing the law.

Should you choose to ignore it you would be riding an illegal motorized vehicle and will be prostituted the same as if you were driving an uninsured car.

Jeese is that the penalty for driving uninsured now!

Jeese is that the penalty for driving uninsured now!

I blame the Tories.

I think my comment has been mirepresented. I want to prove my suggested configuration is "more legal" (at least under a reasonable assumption of the spirit of the law) than configurations with LCD allowing to set / modify max speed (by default at 25km/h):

I suggest starting with a "legal" motor, e.g. a 250W Bafang CST (or in Barcelona, say a 500W BPM under SEL legislation). Say I want to plug that motor into a KU123 controller, which is legal in relation to power, but very likely illegal in relation to speed: a 250W Bafang CST with a KU123 and a good battery most likely has a max speed above 25km/h.

So, now the biker has to do something. I suggested he bought a 3-speed switch, such that with the 1st speed, max speed becomes 25km/h, and he hides the switch inside a box (probably where the battery and controller are located).

Now let us assume two possible situations:

1. The one described above

2. A "legal" bike with LCD allowing to set / modify max speed (by default at 25km/h)

Which one is closer to the spirit of the law? In my opinion, clearly (1). The reason is:

a. A biker under (2) can easily change the settings while biking. Instead, a biker under (1) cannot do that, and probably he has to stop, get out of the bike, and click a button.

b. Biker (1) at least has done some effort to reduce his configuration to the legal limit, since he has spent money buying that 3-speed switch

Even if biker (1) made a hole allowing him to click a button, this would most likely be more difficult to do while biking than modifying an LCD set comfortable at the handlebar.

To sum up, I believe that adding a 3-speed switch to a KU123 (or similar) is as legal as (or even more legal) than having a LCD with the max speed set in there. In fact, having the 3-speed switch on the handlebar would be roughly equivalent to having the LCD, since in both cases, with a rapid hand movement one could change the settings.

you can't change the LCD setting while riding.

You have to stop, go to setting menu, scroll to speed setting, press +/- to change then save and restart the LCD. It would take a minimum 45 seconds to do this.

The badass dongle is the nearest to a switch but you still need to stop.

you can't change the LCD setting while riding.

You have to stop, go to setting menu, scroll to speed setting, press +/- to change then save and reset the LCD. It would take a minimum 45 seconds to do this.

Thanks, I did not know that. Then, a LCD would be roughly equivalent to having a 3-speed switch inside a box.

Just to clear up a couple of peripheral points:

1. Controllers don't affect the speed. The speed would be the same whether you have a KU63, KU93 or KU123.

2 The KU123 gives too much current for the 250w BPM or CST motors.The KU123 at 22 amps would be the one to go for.

Just to clear up a couple of peripheral points:

 

1. Controllers don't affect the speed. The speed would be the same whether you have a KU63, KU93 or KU123.

 

2 The KU123 gives too much current for the 250w BPM or CST motors.The KU123 at 22 amps would be the one to go for.

Dave

Does more controller, motor current not = more watts, hence more power and more speed?

If the above is not true I'd appreciate a quick explanation, if there is one.

Many thanks

The motor has to be labelled as a 250W one by the manufacturer. You can run it at whatever power you want, so Ezee and Bafang 2500W CST/BPMs are the best candidates.

 

The speed limit is 25 km/h. Any accessible switch is not allowed. Speedict had the best solution, where their microprocessor had a legal speed and other parameters pre-programmed into it, which could be activated by bluetooth remotely from your phone. Nobody would know that you changed anything because the Speedict device is not physically accessible, and it has no screen to see what settings it has. I'm not sure how well it works. I think they fixed most problems.

I'll try again.

What is being talked about in this thread? Is it a Electric Assisted Pedal Cycle or EAPC in which case it must match in performance anything that an ordinary cyclist can achieve on one but never ever exceed it. The continuous maximum rating is important but nowhere near as important as the maximum peak rating which under UK Law has been set at 650 Watts or three quarters of a Horse Power.

If you aren't talking about EAPC's the you must be talking about a new class of vehicle that the Ministry of Transport has not yet defined. I will tell you what the European maximum peak rating is if it differs from the UK one when I get an answer from my MEP.

Yours sincerely

Linfitter

What is being talked about in this thread? Is it an electric assisted pedal cycle or EAPC

Both :-))

geebee talked about e-bikes (EAPC), arbol talked about 1kw e-bike, which (although speed restricted) can be registered as e-moped (SEL) in Spain.

which have best climbing ability between cst 500w 48v 22amp270 rpm or cst 250w 48v 22amp 205 rpm?

It depends on the gradient. If you give me the gradient, I'll try to calculate the climbing speed for each motor.

Hang on, does any one have a motor test report for the 8-Fun 48V 22Amp 270 RPM?