Kudos-KTM Roadshow,Manifold Trail,Derbyshire,April 13,12.00-17.00

[GaRRy]

Nope The best beers are brewed in that area of the country that neither the north or the south.


If you live there and you go down south they call you a bloody northerner and if you go north they call you a soft southerner .

The Midlands

 

[Mike63]

Hi everybody...I hope you have a good day.

....my ride has let me down...anybody coming down the M1 from 40 up, who'd pick me up at jct. 40 and bring me back ....I'd gladly pay half the fuel costs.

cheers....Mike

 

[Kudoscycles]

Beer was great.
Someone complained that the hills at Redbridge were not steep enough. I have just climbed up the hill from the tea rooms towards Wetton,it is 14%,that should be a good test of any ebike.
KudosDave

 

[Artstu]

Stunning sunny weather here in the north Peak District this morning, lets hope the Manifold Trail is just the same. Have a good day everyone.

 

[JimB]

Thanks to Kudos Dave, Kevin from Leek Cycles and their colleagues for their welcome, time and advice today.

There seemed to be a great deal of interest generated and a lot of test rides on the Manifold Trail.

I was particularly impressed by the Kudos Arriba and the KTM Macina Bold.

I enjoyed it so much we missed lunch! So I was told many times on the way home

JimB

 

[Taff]

I echo JimB's thanks but not his choices
Also - I had some butties in the car.

Also a personal thanks to GaRRy for letting me see and ride his bikes - cheers mate.

I did a 7 mile hike over the hills before and went up the hill (on the bike) 4.5 times.
When I get some time I'll post my thoughts.

Taff

 

[GORDONAL]

I also would like to thank KD. ( Kudos Dave ) for organising the event , far more bikes there than what I expected but Kudos Ibex not there ( courier mishap apparently) .

Great to meet a few of the members .. we were there v. early

Tried 3 of the bikes on display

Raleigh Dover 3 speed ... with Panasonic Crank drive 36V. a very pleasant simple to ride bike ideal for pottering around

Kudos x2 new style Tornado and Arriba ..... both impressive mountain style bikes with good components , the Tornado had a rather abrupt speed cut-off which dimmed my enjoyment of the bike ( I'm sure "adjustable" !!!) , the Arriba for me was the sweeter ride its just a shame no Ibex was present .
Anyone from Redbridge last weekend able to give a direct comparison between the Kudos Ibex and the Woosh Sirocco CD ? I know the motors are the same and the Ibex spec. is a little higher ( but so is the price)

Anyway thanks again KD.

 

[jackhandy]

Was the Kudos Ibex actually at Redbridge?

I thought I read someone post that it didn't turn up there, either.

I just hope it's at Eden next weekend....

I'll post from site , early, if it is & you can all come down for the weekend - Nice caravan/camping sites all around Eden

 

[Taff]

Whilst I look at the actual bike climb at Manifold, if anyone wants to have an idea what this area looks like, feel free to look at my photos online at:
Panoramio - Photos by Taff Wrexham > best

If you want to look at any photos specifically, use the tags button.
Taff

PS if anyone wants a GPX file of this walk let me know.

 

[Taff]

Yesterday at Manifold I tested 4 bikes - links at the bottom.
1 KTM eRace 650 (Torque Sensor) Panasonic Rear Hub Drive
2 KUDOS Arriba (Torque Sensor) 8Fun Rear Hub Drive
3 KTM Macina Race 29 (Speed Sensor)
4 KTM Macina Bold 26 (Speed Sensor)

Assumptions/Facts
I wanted to test the bikes under the conditions under which I might use them i.e. knackered.
Thus I did a 7 mile hike first including 700m of ascent.
On the bike I carried 2 full water bottles with me.
I weigh about 14.5 stone.
On each ride I approached the hill with no assist on.
The route was 2.61 miles from the Tea Rooms up to Wetton and back with a 20 second ish stop at the top. The hill is about 10-11% no more through the majority of the climb; the average through the climb is about 7.5%.

Comments:
1 KTM eRace 650 (Torque Sensor) Panasonic Rear Hub Drive
Terrific bike, torque sensor was magnificent and gave a very smooth ride. Beautiful gear changes and lovely smooth rolling along without assist. With assist coped with the hill easily and an enjoyable climb. Very enjoyable descent max speed 39.44mph w/out pushing brakes were excellent.
Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - Apr 13, 2013, 11:59 AM

Comments:
2 KUDOS Arriba (Torque Sensor) 8Fun Rear Hub Drive
Good bike, torque sensor was solid but a bit lively when setting off. Gave a smooth ride but it seemed to me that the motor kept cutting out for a micro-second every now and then. Good gear changes and smooth rolling along without assist. With assist coped with the hill easily and an enjoyable climb apart from the glitches mentioned earlier. Very enjoyable descent max speed 33.58mph w/out pushing brakes were good but I was wary of them - hence a slower descent.
Ride Link: Cyclemeter - Cycle - Apr 13, 2013, 12:20 PM
(Note the drop in speed at around 1.35 miles.

Comments:
3 KTM Macina Race 29 (Speed Sensor)
4 KTM Macina Bold 26 (Speed Sensor)
Both of these bikes had a centremotor and both road superbly along the flat with/without assist but I couldn't cope with the hill at all; coming to a standstill both times.

SUMMARY
1 What I have learned is that a Torque Sensor is perfect for my 'thrashing around the gears' type riding and that a Speed Sensor is no good for me. That's not a criticism of the 2 bikes above in anyway at all; more a case of what suits me.
2 It seems to me there is a premium to pay for overall quality esp. components and ride - what a punter has to decide is can they afford it; or do they want to afford it.
I would be happy with either of the first 2 bikes but I would definitely pay the premium for the KTM eRace.
3 It is essential to test ride bikes - I could hear people stating their preferences after riding and they didn't seem to be thinking like me; so it goes to show it's personal preference.
4 Now I need to look at other bikes with Torque Sensors but at this moment in time my choice is down to 3:
BH Emotion Neo Cross
Storck Raddar
KTM eRace 650
Which is where I think I started out...
All of these are Torque Sensor and all are rear hub drive.
If anyone can tell me the relative assist levels of these 3 bikes (on maximum settings) I'd be grateful.

Hope this is of help to anyone and if you've any questions please post them.

TAFF

PS - You can use this link and the little orange man to 'virtual cycle' through the route.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=safari&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&gl=uk&daddr=Butterton,+Staffordshire&saddr=Wetton,+Staffordshire&panel=1&f=d&fb=1&dirflg=d&geocode=KbtXKrq_PHpIMS6n2lTESErK;KSXdwMJ6PHpIMZuS-VlwkX5e

BIKE LINKS
1 eRace P650
2 .: Kudos Cycles - e-bikes with style :.
3 Macina Race 29/26
4 Macina Bold 26"

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Hi Taff

Have to say I love the KTM Panasonic hub drive bikes we have the eTour in stock at the moment. The maximum assistance is 400%. Not sure about other two bikes assistance though think Neo's maximum assistance is 300%. Although we do not stock them I am a fan of the Neo.

Your experience mirrors what a lot of our customers often feel when they try the premium bikes I like x but love ....

Have fun finding your perfect bike!

David

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Comments:
3 KTM Macina Race 29 (Speed Sensor)
4 KTM Macina Bold 26 (Speed Sensor)
Both of these bikes had a centremotor and both road superbly along the flat with/without assist but I couldn't cope with the hill at all; coming to a standstill both times.

SUMMARY
1 What I have learned is that a Torque Sensor is perfect for my 'thrashing around the gears' type riding and that a Speed Sensor is no good for me. That's not a criticism of the 2 bikes above in anyway at all; more a case of what suits me.
2 It seems to me there is a premium to pay for overall quality esp. components and ride - what a punter has to decide is can they afford it; or do they want to afford it.
I would be happy with either of the first 2 bikes but I would definitely pay the premium for the KTM eRace.
3 It is essential to test ride bikes - I could hear people stating their preferences after riding and they didn't seem to be thinking like me; so it goes to show it's personal preference.

Something's not right. Both the Macina Race and Macina Bold use torque sensors, not speed sensors. Also, I'm a lot heavier than you and probably less fit, but I've had no trouble climbing any 10% hill on any Bosch-motored bike. Did you have the power turned down?

Whether you have a torque sensor or speed sensor, it makes little difference to climbing ability. In theory, speed sensors would give more power because the power is continuous, while as some torque sensored bikes give power in direct relation to your pedal pressure, which makes the power pulse/surge; however, the Bosch motors in the KTMs don't suffer from that.

Climbing ability depends on motor torque, and each motor is different, although Bosch motors are nearly all the same.

The glitching you noticed on the Kudos was probably the power switching on and off as you passed the 15mph speed limit. I also found that the torque sensor in the Kudos wasn't very smooth. It was more like a switch and worked like a speed sensor.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Thanks to all who attended the Manifold Trail event. I thought the numbers who attended were just perfect,it gave everyone an opportunity to ride alomost any bike without any undue delay for a specific bike,great to put names to faces off the forum.
The local people,Jeanette at the tea rooms, Nicola at the Old Vicarage B&B(lovely place) and all the staff at the Olde Royal Oak pub(great food) were so supportive.
I think the venue worked really well,the hill up to Wetton was a good test and the Manifold Trail offered an easy ride to those new to ebikes.I think this could easily become our northern ebike event for future years,I know some would like us to go further north but this is quite a haul up from Kent.
As regards the feedback on bikes,the end result was a bit confusing. Some really liked the Kudos Arriba,some liked the KTM erace 650 and some liked the KTM Macina Bold. Bikes sold at the show were the Kudos Cobra,Kudos Liberty and the Kudos Secret,the lady who bought the Secret was surprised at its hill climbing ability. It is obvious that crank drive will not dominate in the future,there are many who prefer hub drive,it recognises that us suppliers do have to offer a variety of bike systems and styles.
KudosDave

 

[JimB]

I nearly came to a standstill on the Bold despite changing down through the gears and ramping the assist up to max until I remembered reading here about hub gears refusing to change down under load.

A brief hesitation in pedalling of course allowed an immediate change down whereupon the bike went off up the hill like a rocket with me, fortunately still on it.

Whilst I was chatting halfway up the hill two ladies were struggling up the hill on another pair of Kudos machines (I forgot to ask them if they were aware of the gear change 'thing') but in turn they both took a turn on the Bold for the rest of the hill. I explained the gear change requirement, now being an expert, but put the bike in first gear. The both were almost left behind by the bike as it literally took off up the hill.

I believe both were impressed and I know they took it out afterwards for a full trial.

I understood that this bike had a torque sensor BTW.

I didn't notice any glitching but as a raw beginner I was maybe too immersed in other things to notice.

JimB

 

[Taff]

Something's not right. Both the Macina Race and Macina Bold use torque sensors, not speed sensors. Also, I'm a lot heavier than you and probably less fit, but I've had no trouble climbing any 10% hill on any Bosch-motored bike. Did you have the power turned down?

According to the Kudos guys they were speed sensors... certainly I didn't feel any 'torque sensing' going on! Power was on OK and I put it to max so as to be a fair test between all 4 bikes.

Whether you have a torque sensor or speed sensor, it makes little difference to climbing ability.

I agree - which is why I didn't fault the bikes but my style of riding. They didn't work for me.

The glitching you noticed on the Kudos was probably the power switching on and off as you passed the 15mph speed limit.

Could well be that actually - perhaps the KTM eRace 650 didn't have the cut off as low as that didn't cut out at all.

Ummm - quite interesting.

 

[Jimod]

Comments:
3 KTM Macina Race 29 (Speed Sensor)
4 KTM Macina Bold 26 (Speed Sensor)
Both of these bikes had a centremotor and both road superbly along the flat with/without assist but I couldn't cope with the hill at all; coming to a standstill both times.

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I'm confused, which isn't a rare event. Are you saying the crank drive bikes couldn't go up the hill but the hub drive bikes did?

I was SOOO looking forward to buying a crank drive and conquering a few hills. Although my hub drive Kudos has never been beaten yet.

 

[Taff]

I nearly came to a standstill on the Bold despite changing down through the gears and ramping the assist up to max until I remembered reading here about hub gears refusing to change down under load.

That might explain the Macina Bold Jim but not the other one as well.
Shame really as I was really looking forward to comparing these bikes. Still the KTM eRace 650 made up for it.

I understood that this bike had a torque sensor BTW.

Which bike Jim the Bold or the bike the ladies had?

Perhaps Kudos Dave can confirm what sensor was on these bikes.

 

[Taff]

I'm confused, which isn't a rare event. Are you saying the crank drive bikes couldn't go up the hill but the hub drive bikes did?

NO.

I'm saying that they didn't go up the hill for ME. Maybe there is a technique to use I don't know but both came to a halt. The other 2 bikes and a Neo Extreme had no problem.

I was SOOO looking forward to buying a crank drive and conquering a few hills. Although my hub drive Kudos has never been beaten yet.

The only way you'll know is to test ride one.

 

[Artstu]

I nearly came to a standstill on the Bold despite changing down through the gears and ramping the assist up to max until I remembered reading here about hub gears refusing to change down under load.

A brief hesitation in pedalling of course allowed an immediate change down whereupon the bike went off up the hill like a rocket with me, fortunately still on it.

That caught me out too, but I had no trouble at all climbing the steeper road to Wetton at the next road crossing south on the trail. I even stopped to chat to a bloke pushing his mountain bike up the hill, and just set off again and was quickly back up through the gears going up.

Electric bikes can be very deceptive, I felt held back at times on the bikes, but jumping on my none-electric bike soon made me realise how strong the wind had gotten in the bottom.

I had thought the Bosch would have been more powerful, it's very subtle. With a bit more speed I'd be happy with a Bosch, but perhaps not with the Macina Bold as the bike.

 

[Artstu]

That might explain the Macina Bold Jim but not the other one as well.
Shame really as I was really looking forward to comparing these bikes. Still the KTM eRace 650 made up for it.
.

Wasn't the Race the 11-speed Alfine one? I didn't pay too much attention once I'd realised it would be difficult to fit mudguards to one.

Macina 29"