May 21, 201114 yr We have a bike under development known as Kudos HERO,the spec of the bike is likely to be as follows- 48cm or 51cm frame 6061-T6 ally frame Kudos front solid forks Shimano Deore 9-speed derailleur 26"dual wall rims, Kenda road tyres Velo plus saddle Hydraulic disc brakes,front and rear 36v x 16Ah LifePo4 battery Suzhou Bafang 250watt rear motor-special low speed torque Uprated high current controller LED integral lights Shimano dynamo front hub Pannier bags ART anti theft lock probable colours-satin black or steel blue I had a lot of interest in such a bike as this at the Tour de Presteigne,the hill climbing ability being of obvious interest in that hilly part of Wales. We anticipate the price to be between £1125.00 to £1195.00 Am very interested in your thoughts on this spec,it could be changed at this stage. Note-the 26" wheels,high current controller and 16Ah battery to feed the controller demands have all been spec'd to climb hills,at the expense of range. The prototype will be available late June,2011 Dave Elderfield Kudos Cycles
May 21, 201114 yr Excellent idea Dave, I'd expect a high demand for such an e-bike, improved hill climbing being one of the most common demands, and the lack of climb ability one of the most common complaints. The spec looks as though it will have wide appeal and 26" wheels a good choice, better mechanical climb advantage than 700c.
May 21, 201114 yr Author The most difficult decisions were- Forks-whether to use solid or suspension forks,I spec'd solid because of weight saving,motor in the rear and testing of our Tourer model revealed that the action on steep hills avoids the bounce of suspension. Brakes-our mountain bikes all have hydraulic disc brakes,I find these to add som much confidence to steep downhill braking,with very precise feel and control. Colours-every additional colour adds 50 stock units,with 3 colours and 2 frame sizes thats 250 bikes,thats ok but are people worried about colour-would you prefer satin black,steel blue or white? Really interested in others opinions? Dave Elderfield Kudos Cycles
May 21, 201114 yr I'd say black or black and white. Now disregarding boy bike colours can I suggest, from a design colour point of view - that if you have any say so in colours of ladies step over bikes look at the dutch retro colours on non ebikes and go for very pale retro blue and very pale retro yellow. On another forum there was a thread that had pages and pages of oohing and aaahing at a very expensive non ebike that was a pale retro yellow. Of course design-wise it was appealing to the eye too. Just some thoughts -sorry it doesn't help your current decision.
May 21, 201114 yr current e-bike standard 250W motor would limit what the bike can do. The physics formulae: W = F x d, W being 250W + rider's own physical effort, means that if the motor is geared to lower speed and higher torque, the rider won't go any faster uphill.
May 21, 201114 yr An excellent idea. Congratulations on your initiative, as Flecc says, hill-climbing is one of the motives for buying a electric bike. Well done for your reasonably priced batteries, by the way. If you can establish a reputation for great customer support as well, you are on to a winning formula. My vote is for steel blue! Trex - just to save Flecc the bother of making the same point again... 250w is the average permitted output. The peak power output of a legal motor would be more than this. In the case of a powerful motor such as a Heinzmann, it would be much more.
May 21, 201114 yr Andy, if you are climbing a hill, you will need a sustained output from the motor. As with car engine management, the peak output of the engine may be twice of its RMS but if you run the engine at that rate for eny length of time, it'll burn out. My solution for improving uphill performance is to wear a pacemaker or failing that, project Britney Spears hologram in front of the bike then pretend you won't be outdone by a chick.
May 21, 201114 yr Andy, if you are climbing a hill, you will need a sustained output from the motor. As with car engine management, the peak output of the engine may be twice of its RMS but if you run the engine at that rate for eny length of time, it'll burn out. I have to come in anyway Andy! Trex, the 250 watts is a notional nonsense. As I and others have demonstrated, the motors in "legal" e-bikes sustain greatly in excess of 250 watts output without temperature rise. In my case on a Torq 1 the sustained output for almost all of the bike's battery content was 540 watts net with a temperature fall of 1 degree centigrade from pre-warmed up start to finish. That is an exceptional one, but circa 400 watts is commonplace. Comparison of electric motors with ic engines is rarely relevant.
May 21, 201114 yr Kudos uses Bafang 250W motor, if they overclock the controller, other manufacturers will complaint to trading standards. They wouldn't do it anyway because it's illegal. You can do anything you like with your bike, that's why I wanted to know how you can knock them dead. All e-bikes as I understand have a high startup current but a few seconds later, will drop down to normal, either to throttle level or through pedal pedal assist sensor or torque sensor. There are plenty of things manufacturers can do to improve e-bikes such as esthetics, ergonomics, batteries but I don't think they make illegal products. Please correct me if I am wrong.
May 21, 201114 yr Author The HERO bike like all Kudos product will pass EN15194 Dave Elderfield KudosCycles
May 21, 201114 yr My point is, if you take two riders, one with Kudos Carbon King and another one with Kudos Sport (the one I wanted to buy and might still do), both will race from A to B. The one with stronger legs will win on any length, with or without hills. Manufacturers are hemmed in by stupid EN whatsit but that's what our previous goverments have signed up to.
May 21, 201114 yr Hi I quote ( Uprated high current controller ) WHY more amps = more watts If not why uprate the controller = More than 250 watts continues If not it wont climb hills 36 volt battery runs at 42 volt battery 20 amp controller 42X 20 = 840 watts to the motor less 20% the loss through the motor at least 600 watts Continues 1,000 watts peak NOW that will climb a HILL Frank
May 21, 201114 yr Don`t make it pink, as people might have doubts about you and in any case you will have trouble selling it on . Ask yourself, would you buy a pink car from anyone ?
May 21, 201114 yr Kudos uses Bafang 250W motor, if they overclock the controller, other manufacturers will complaint to trading standards. They wouldn't do it anyway because it's illegal. You can do anything you like with your bike, that's why I wanted to know how you can knock them dead. All e-bikes as I understand have a high startup current but a few seconds later, will drop down to normal, either to throttle level or through pedal pedal assist sensor or torque sensor. There are plenty of things manufacturers can do to improve e-bikes such as esthetics, ergonomics, batteries but I don't think they make illegal products. Please correct me if I am wrong. The real world facts contradict your assertions Trex. Firstly, it can be shown that e-bikes could not do what they do on 250 watts continuous maximum power. For example, a legal eZee Quando model will climb a protracted 12% gradient at just over a steady 8 mph with me on board, total load fractionally over 100 kilos, and I would happily do that to battery empty on a suitable long alpine gradient. Simple calculation shows that requires a minimum of 439 watts, and that's without any allowance for rolling resistance and frictions. Secondly, peak powers are far higher than you imagine. The Torq 1 I quoted before has been measured at just over 1000 watts gross peak power, not only by me but by member Tiberius (Nick), a scientist who sits on some of the international standards committees. Thirdly, another manufacturer has recently posted that one of his motors was passed for EN15194 with 248 watts stable temperature maximum, measured at the motor shaft. That's not possible, the motor shaft is only accessible in the blind end of the hub shell. To measure in the claimed way, the motor core would have to be removed and a support yoke would have to be made for the motor core to be mounted in new bearings for that purpose. There are also further complications in measuring that I won't bore you with. Even in the very unlikely event of this being done, the test result would be completely invalid since it would not constitute a test of the standard product. And once again, that bike could not do what it does with 248 watts, less the losses due to it's internal epicyclic gear set. I well remember the early days of e-bikes three decades ago when they did adhere to the legal power specified in the EAPC regulations of 1983. They were almost useless, which prevented their success, and it wasn't until the late 1990s when manufacturers adopted a more liberal interpretation that they became more popular. It would be interesting to know what the EN testers are doing, but it certainly isn't achieving a measurement of continuous maximum power. Your challenge is far from new, we've had a succession of new members doing the same in blindly accepting the 250 watts as gospel at the outset. They have learnt differently with time and experience of the subject.
May 21, 201114 yr Author Thanks guys....thats sorted out the colour then....Black frame,Pink tyres and yellow mudguards...that will keep everyone happy,hehe....Kudos
May 21, 201114 yr Thanks guys....thats sorted out the colour then....Black frame,Pink tyres and yellow mudguards...that will keep everyone happy,hehe....Kudos I think that would look great Dave...............when can I get one? Seriously, I think that steel blue would look good.
May 21, 201114 yr I would really like to see some colour on bikes, it's all grey, white and black these days and really boring. My current bike is bright orange Not that I like orange that much, but it was the only one they had other than grey
May 21, 201114 yr Hi the simple answer is to put the bike on a dyno then it will reveal the BHP and speed at the wheel as if it where on a road Frank:cool:
May 21, 201114 yr Agreed Frank, though the result would be the same as that calculated from on-road hill climb tests.
May 21, 201114 yr Flecc wrote: Your challenge is far from new, we've had a succession of new members doing the same in blindly accepting the 250 watts as gospel at the outset. They have learnt differently with time and experience of the subject. It's not a challenge, I only made a practical observation that all manufacturers have access to similar technologies that are limited by EN15194. As Frank pointed out, you can only climb more hill if you void your test certificate. Furthermore, what can come out of the motor depends on the configuration of the battery: how many cells do you need connected in parallel to supply the 20A without starting fire? The plain fact is most bikes are limited by law, not by design. Until the law changes, it's nigh impossible to climd hills without pedal power.
May 21, 201114 yr The EN test allows for a practical 'road test' to determine motor power with a +10% margin. If this is used or even a static test to pass EN then a Kudos bike 'hill climber' will be no different to to a normal road bike...sorry but I smell something.... I would still like to know what the standard Kudos bike controller is set to, if set to more than 12amp at 36v then the bike has a high chance of not passing the EN test as it stands.
May 21, 201114 yr Until the law changes, it's nigh impossible to climd hills without pedal power. This simply isn't true as I've already shown by example of a legal bike that does. Most e-bikes that can be controlled without pedalling will climb 7 to 10% unaided with moderate rider weight, dependant on that weight of course. I note you approved of a post in 10 mph's thread where he demonstrated the invalidity factors of the EN tests and the double legal power he reported. So why are you disputing with me what you approve with him?
May 21, 201114 yr The EN test allows for a practical 'road test' to determine motor power with a +10% margin. If this is used or even a static test to pass EN then a Kudos bike 'hill climber' will be no different to to a normal road bike...sorry but I smell something.... I would still like to know what the standard Kudos bike controller is set to, if set to more than 12amp at 36v then the bike has a high chance of not passing the EN test as it stands. You are right to smell something, a 37 volt bike with a known manufacturer-acknowledged controller setting of 16 amps is reported as passing the EN test with 248 watts maximum continuous output. Another bike with a different motor and controller designed and made in another country also returns exactly 248 watts on the same test. The test and figures remain the nonsense they have always been, as demonstrated by the practical on road performances.
May 21, 201114 yr flecc wrote: I note you approved of a post in 10 mph's thread where he demonstrated the invalidity factors of the EN tests and the double legal power he reported. So why are you disputing with me what you approve with him? 10mph tested only on 20 metres, it's not a hill.
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