KTM Cross Macina (Bosch) arrives...

[eddieo]

Just went for quick spin in the rain and dont seem to have made much differnce..the bike is very nice though, went to Croydon this morning......

You have to put more effort in then with the wisper, and the wall @ 15 mph is not nice, and not what I am used to...But its nice having two very different kinds of bikes and that was the intention.

we are away to ride on "The Downs Link" at the weekend so hopefully will have some more meaningful comments after that. But If I pushed and had to choose one it would be the wisper (so far)

 

[flecc]

I think that's probably going to be normal for most crank drives Eddie. The Panasonic set a benchmark when it allocated around 50% of the effort to the rider. Since then, it's eased that by adding the high power mode meaning a reduction to around 40% of rider effort, but that's still more than hub motor types require on the flat. The trouble is the competition, getting the rider to do more of the work increases range, but that then means the competitors have to try and match that by doing the same.

I can't help feeling that the German opinions on the Bosch system were coloured by national pride. It doesn't appear to me to entirely live up to everything they've said, sounding not too different from the Yamaha and latest Panasonic units.

As you say though, it has it's benefits and I'm sure once you are more used to it, you'll get more from it. That's always been the case with the Panasonic unit.

 

[eddieo]

I
As you say though, it has it's benefits and I'm sure once you are more used to it, you'll get more from it. That's always been the case with the Panasonic unit.

It does not feel as nice a bike as the Flyer X series, no where near it to be honest...wheras the Specialised/wisper does....But at the price I think once I get used to the system, and put a bit more effort in (no bad thing) I will be happy with it. The wife loves it, so if she is happy so am I, but she will have trouble keeping up with me at the weekend! lol

 

[indalo]

I can't help feeling that the German opinions on the Bosch system were coloured by national pride. It doesn't appear to me to entirely live up to everything they've said, sounding not too different from the Yamaha and latest Panasonic units.

As you say though, it has it's benefits and I'm sure once you are more used to it, you'll get more from it. That's always been the case with the Panasonic unit.

That's probably a key point made by Flecc in his last paragraph. I should imagine that anyone used to the more powerful hub-driven bikes would feel underwhelmed by a Panasonic or similar crank-driven bike. If one is keen to make some effort and behave as if on an unassisted bike, the crank-driven models will be rewarding in use. Powerful, hub-driven bikes which can master the steepest hills with little or no need to pedal may have a place but ultimately, cannot be regarded as bicycles. They are, for want of a better description, mopeds but without an internal combustion engine.

I'm not knocking them but they do seem rather primitive when compared to the best pedal-assisted, crank-driven bikes. Each has its place and it's good that we have the choice. One day, given my prognosis from my cardiologist today, I may decide to add a kit to one of my regular bikes but I'll continue to attempt riding it "as is" until that day comes.

It never surprises me that the "boy-racer" element within the forum rave about the really, really fast, (and invariably illegal) hub-driven bikes cobbled together by blokes working in sheds. Those who are engineers or those with any understanding of, or empathy with, electro-mechanical things must appreciate the simple but effective science and the sheer engineering elegance provided by the chaps at Panasonic.

Like Flecc, I remain to be convinced that the new Bosch-system machines represent a new dimension in ebikes. I suspect the hype may be a triumph of marketing over engineering truth but time will tell. I'm bound to say I shall be surprised if Bosch can come out of nowhere and produce a radical, new crank-drive motor for bikes when all their other electrically-powered equipment, whether it's gardening machinery or industrial tools, could only be regarded as adequate, rather than special.

I'm happy to be shot down in flames if, in a year or two's time, Bosch-powered ebikes are regarded as the "Rolls-Royces".......or perhaps that should be "Porsches or Maybachs?".....in their field. If they are any good, I may even buy one!

Regards,
Indalo

 

[eddieo]

The point of purchasing these bikes was I wanted 2 bikes with a normal wheelbase. The Panasonic looks and feels decidedly old fashioned IMO against the Bosch, and fails in this regard lamentably.

I dont think they will ever be regarded as high end? More VW I would think.......They are becoming far to popular in Germany for that. You dont get enthusiasts abandoning their Flyers and BionX bikes for these without good reason, or 16 manufacturers taking up production either.

probably take a couple of years here yet but I think they will become popular, they are not here because demand in Europe so strong? Evans and other UK distributors started advertising Bosch bikes on websites, only to have the rug pulled from under them and be told, sorry but no 2011 bikes for you.....

 

[indalo]

It does not feel as nice a bike as the Flyer X series, no where near it to be honest

You dont get enthusiasts abandoning their Flyers and BionX bikes for these without good reason

So the Germans are ditching their Flyers for something you consider inferior.....or have I got that wrong Eddie?

The Panasonic looks and feels decidedly old fashioned IMO against the Bosch, and fails in this regard lamentably.

There is a particular style which is meant to provide an old-fashioned look and feel Eddie. My Gazelle is one of those and it's a sheer delight to ride. Having trawled through the pictures of Bosch-powered machines, I'm sure I saw one or two traditional-style bikes among them. Perhaps those fail lamentably too?

I acknowledge that the lengthened wheelbase of "behind the seatpost" bikes can be problematic with some types of carrier but there are ways round those problems. In my case, my bike fits inside the garage of my motorhome with ease. It also fits inside my estate car. Alternatively, there are some really robust towbar-mounted carriers available so the extra length of bikes like mine can be accommodated which means the problem is solved.

If Panasonic reveal a bike for next season which mimics the Bosch arrangement but with an even better torque spread, do you think the Germans will go bananas for that? Somehow, I don't think so Ed but that's another story.

Enjoy your Daahub-powered bike and I hope you get to enjoy and appreciate the crank-driven machine also.

Regards,
Indalo

 

[eddieo]

if I still had my bigger camper with garage, I would still of changed bikes, but probably one would have been the 906 xc Tourer. I have the 50kg rack, problem is stretched wheelbase obstructs the rear lights.....

Panasonic have some new designs, but battery still in same place although slimmed down a bit...I just think the Bosch bikes look much more stylish,they are lighter weight, and more like a normal bike, then Dutch style barges lol

I am enjoying KTM, just have to get used to the system that is all. But I now have the kinda e bikes I always wanted....

would I prefer the X series Flyer? Probably, but it costs well over 5k? enough to buy both of my new bikes, and a Caribbean holiday!

 

[flecc]

I'm sure the Bosch will be popular, firstly because it's European and secondly because for many it's a trusted name. It will have some bugs over time I've no doubt, Bosch having no knowledge of cycling or powered cycling to draw on. Panasonic by contrast have been a bike manufacturer since 1945, and the company's founder, Konosuke Matsushita, is passionate about bikes, having been adopted as a small child by a bicycle shop owning family.

 

[eddieo]

Konosuke Matsushita, is passionate about bikes, having been adopted as a small child by a bicycle shop owning family.

So why did he design bikes for 4 foot nothing, 6 stone Japanese housewives

I think my chain is slipping? just went to Croydon and on the way back, every now and then there is a "dink" Could it be jumping a cog? Also I guess I have to condition battery a couple of times??

 

[eddieo]

chain fixed.....wheel needed adjusting backwards to take up slack

 

[flecc]

So why did he design bikes for 4 foot nothing, 6 stone Japanese housewives

That's just a Wai Won smear! Panasonic make a whole range of bikes in Japan, and even have a couple of sporting lightweight ones using their power unit. Trouble is that they are still bound by their restrictive e-bike laws, though the units they export no longer suffer those now.

Glad your chain's fixed, but you will need to condition that battery at least once.

 

[eddieo]

That's just a Wai Won smear! Panasonic make a whole range of bikes in Japan, and even have a couple of sporting lightweight ones using their power unit. Trouble is that they are still bound by their restrictive e-bike laws, though the units they export no longer suffer those now.

Glad your chain's fixed, but you will need to condition that battery at least once.

Yes ran the battery down to 1 LED (9 Km left according to display) as I need it fully charged for the weekend.will ride it completely flat next time..will that be OK? Enjoying the bike more now...It demands more from you, but that is kinda satisfying at the end of a trip. Very nice and smooth, with a more natural power delivery. a mate of mine who cycles everywhere had a go this afternoon and was really shocked how well it went!

There was a Panasonic bike at recent show that cost £10,000

 

[flecc]

Yes, completely flat next time will do ok. These crank drive systems can be very satisfying, feeling like one just has stronger muscles rather than the power coming from a motor. Good for building up fitness too.

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

Silent hub motors

Yes its early days with the Bosch, but will use it this week and report back. I just have to get used to the crank drive system that is all......

Any hub motor bike is bound to be noisier then a crank drive, but DaaHub certainly quieter then 905/705. So far the Daahub is well ahead it is just such fun.....

Eddieo,

Firstly, congrats on purchasing your new Bosch bike!

Secondly, not all hub motors make a noise. Koga and Sparta hub motors make NO NOISE as they have no moving parts in side. Cheaper hub motors make a noise because they use epicyclic gears to achieve high torque from low torque motors.

Rgds,

James

 

[eTim]

Interesting that there is nothing in the manual about conditioning the Bosch battery. Maybe they know sometyhing we don't !

 

[flecc]

Or maybe we know something they don't.

They don't make batteries.

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

Am in Germany with Bosch thurs and Fri, will ask about battery conditioning.

Rgds,

James

 

[Artstu]

I look forward to reading more about how the bike is going Eddie, I'm also keen to hear views on pedalling above the assistance level, does the system induce any drag? also keen to see a link to the ones that have been modded to assist to greater speeds.

I followed a 100 mile sportive at the weekend in the car, and for a lot of the time I followed riders doing between 30-50 mph downhill, it seems such a daft rule to allow ebikes such a low assist speed, I'd be over the moon to have a bike that assisted up to around 25mph, and above that speed had zero drag from the motor.

 

[flecc]

I'd be over the moon to have a bike that assisted up to around 25mph, and above that speed had zero drag from the motor.

The BikeTec Flyer S series or the Kalkhoff Pro Connect S series with either the SRAM DualDrive or the Rohloff gear hub do exactly what you want, assist to about 25/26 mph and no perceptible drag above assist since the motor drive sprocket is freewheeled . The BikeTec models are available as standard with those gear choices.

 

[eddieo]

Yes but with a £5000 + price tag.....

The bosch system is regarded a better hill climber then even the S class let alone the normal Panasonic according to much chatter and a lot of very satisfied owners on German forum....

here is a review of a Haibike (exactly the same system as mine, better spec bike, £1000 more) skip intro and go to "Ride" and see what they think!

Google Translate

2.5 hrs for full charge. 90% charge 1.5 hrs and climbs like on a full battery to cut out (benefit of 36 v system?) more agile and lighter due to shorter wheelbase etc.... etc....

The futures here but most dont know it yet