KT sine wave controllers - are they all "torque simulation"?

[Cadence]

My apologies if this has been answered before, but after searching here and elsewhere I'm a bit confused - not difficult!
My hybrid has a Yose Power 250w. rear hub kit, which I "upgraded" with their 36v. "350w." 18A. controller. I'm generally pleased with the performance but after reading favourable comments from many members I'm itching to try a KT "torque simulation" controller and display.
The attractions appear to be:-
Smoother operation and more "natural" assistance with current based PAS than speed based.
A legal throttle option (6km/h without pedalling, then full throttle with pedalling when over 6km/h).
More torque and higher speed with 48v.

I will be running with a 36v. 13Ah battery, but I might eventually get a 48v one.

Two KT controllers that are definitely "torque simulation" are listed by Topbikekit -T06S 15A. and T09S 22A. The 9 mosfet 22A. version seems rather an overkill for my needs and is also physically too big and intrusive for my liking. Bearing in mind that I am staying with 36v. for now, the 6 mosfet T06S spec. doesn't compare well with the Yose Power controller I'm already using (15A vs. 18A) and I'm concerned that the performance will be inferior with the lower amps.
Ideally I'd like a KT 17A. controller and there seem to several versions on the market (although I've yet to find one with my preferred Julet plugs), but none of them are listed as "torque simulation" capable. Hence the question in the title!

 

[thelarkbox]

While the bike is in bits atm i have a 17a kt controller with julet connectors , might take a day or 2 to get to it but i can confirm the serial/model number soon, should also be able to hook it upto a battery and check paramater options though i am unaware of any being omitted. what are you looking for specifically.

Just popped out to check- not as bad as i thought I can get to the bike with clearing a few obstacles that have been added recently, as long as its dry tomorrow pm i can run through the paramaters you need ?? though due to hall sensor /feed cable probs i cant test the motors running or response and have until now been running it 'out of the box' as that just worked..

 

[Nealh]

KT's are all set as default TS simulation or as we like to call them current controlled, there is a P3/0 setting to change it to a speed controller.

Only issue with the 6fet KT's is they get very hot if one climbs vey slowly on steeper ascents and will eventually thermally cut out. Once cooled they will work again but as I found out once they cutout thermally once they will do so again another day or on the same ride so the mosfets are weakened by the high temps .
One reason why I like the 9 mos sinewave models .

 

[Cadence]

While the bike is in bits atm i have a 17a kt controller with julet connectors , might take a day or 2 to get to it but i can confirm the serial/model number soon, should also be able to hook it upto a battery and check paramater options though i am unaware of any being omitted. what are you looking for specifically.

Just popped out to check- not as bad as i thought I can get to the bike with clearing a few obstacles that have been added recently, as long as its dry tomorrow pm i can run through the paramaters you need ?? though due to hall sensor /feed cable probs i cant test the motors running or response and have until now been running it 'out of the box' as that just worked..

Thanks for the quick reply!
Need to know:-
Does it give a choice in P3 "Power-assist control Mode Setting" of "imitation torque control" - 1, and "speed control" -2.
Model number.
Approx size.
Is it sine wave (9 pin motor cable)?
Ideally, where did you buy it from?

Please don't rush to do anything - it's just a "maybe" at the moment.

 

[thelarkbox]

Somethings i can answer now,
sinewave iirc tick Model number will confirm that..
9 pin motor cable tick
seller JN Ebike Store Ali Express But my order record points to an empty ad page for the item.

sizewise if using a small hard controller box its 1-2mm too wide to fit in ..

I just need to move a few things that would not do well if stood in the rain to get to the bike as they were chucked in to keep dry once i had started and got sidetracked by the battery issues that stopped me testing the hall sensors.. tldr - i got sidetracked.

 

[Nealh]

P3/0 speed control .
p3/1 current control default setting.

36/48v svprm is my 22a sinewave model.
All connection are julet bar the xt60 power connection.

I have another 36/48 svprm 25a sinewave model all wiring is SM block connections, with bullet phases and dj7061 hall block.
This I have modified, the phase /hall wiring to terminates into a shortened (150mm long) std 9 pin julet motor connection which is kept in an under bar bag.
Shortened Std 9 pin julet motor cable with wire tail ends terminates at the controller in to mt60 for phase connection and used the opposite dj7061 for the Hall, then a standard M/F julet motor cable connects direct between motor cable and the shortened controller julet the bag.

Which you buy depends on the reseller.
Typically I buy via TBK directly or via their AliExp store or I buy from other AliExp seller.

Both are 129mm x 66mm x 39mm.

 

[Nealh]

There are so many KT controller wire options that one can do what ever they wish to change any connection that doesn't marry up.

 

[saneagle]

Some suppliers list KT controllers as sinewave when they're not. Sinewave ones have SVPR in the designation. Squarewave ones have anything with a Z in it, likw ZWRSD.

All KT controllers have "torque simulation", which means a different current for each pedal assist level, or you can set it to a different speed for each level. You can switch between them in the settings P3=1 or P3=0

 

[thelarkbox]

Right dug out the bike, and the fitted controller is the 22a job.. the 17a controller box is sat on the side within easy reach.. BUt according top @saneagle above is a squarewave controller with ZWSRD in the ID
KT36/48ZWSRD-ffF0L.

It was fitted to the bike for a few months of trouble free occasional 1-2x a week out rides then an intermittent err-03 occurred before crapping out and the fix saga started.. I now recall swapping over the controllers to eliminate that remote possibility. When riding the bike i was oblivious to the square wave controller status? only looking through for the ad and noticing its $28 price did i start to suspect.. And So I was wrong, IM happy to continue investigations if any millage in it for you but ...

Connections as stated above, with the addition of a 2pin julet lighting feed.
dimensions 36mm x 62mmx94mm

 

[Cadence]

Right dug out the bike, and the fitted controller is the 22a job.. the 17a controller box is sat on the side within easy reach.. BUt according top @saneagle above is a squarewave controller with ZWSRD in the ID
KT36/48ZWSRD-ffF0L.

It was fitted to the bike for a few months of trouble free occasional 1-2x a week out rides then an intermittent err-03 occurred before crapping out and the fix saga started.. I now recall swapping over the controllers to eliminate that remote possibility. When riding the bike i was oblivious to the square wave controller status? only looking through for the ad and noticing its $28 price did i start to suspect.. And So I was wrong, IM happy to continue investigations if any millage in it for you but ...

Connections as stated above, with the addition of a 2pin julet lighting feed.
dimensions 36mm x 62mmx94mm

Thanks for looking. I am now in two minds after Nealh's input. At some point I will go 48v. and he suggests that the KT 15A may overheat. If I go with the 15A I'm concerned that it will not perform as well on 36v. as the Yose 18A controller I already have. That is neatly fitted in a black enclosure on the rear rack struts behind the seat tube and the 15A KT will fit inside it without further modifications.


Logic says I should go with the 9 mosfet KT 22A, and just turn down the amps to suit whichever voltage I'm using, but it is too big for the enclosure. I've made up a cardboard box template of the controller and tried against the bike. I can get a black enclosure 150mm x 82mm x 47 that it will fit in, but it is a tight squeeze behind the seat tube and it will look huge!
Meanwhile I've been searching all the usual suspects (BMS Battery, GreenBikeKIt, PSW Power, AliExpress) for a smaller 17A or 20A KT controller. It is utterly bewildering and I frankly can't believe some of the descriptions. I did find one with PSW, but it's not clear whether it takes a 5-in-1 or 4-in1 cable, and they don't sell either separately anyway!
Decisions, decisions. An hour ago it was "the 15A will be fine, just don't stress it too much" and now it's "go for the 22A and worry about fitting it when it arrives".

 

[saneagle]

Thanks for looking. I am now in two minds after Nealh's input. At some point I will go 48v. and he suggests that the KT 15A may overheat. If I go with the 15A I'm concerned that it will not perform as well on 36v. as the Yose 18A controller I already have. That is neatly fitted in a black enclosure on the rear rack struts behind the seat tube and the 15A KT will fit inside it without further modifications.

View attachment 60090
Logic says I should go with the 9 mosfet KT 22A, and just turn down the amps to suit whichever voltage I'm using, but it is too big for the enclosure. I've made up a cardboard box template of the controller and tried against the bike. I can get a black enclosure 150mm x 82mm x 47 that it will fit in, but it is a tight squeeze behind the seat tube and it will look huge!
Meanwhile I've been searching all the usual suspects (BMS Battery, GreenBikeKIt, PSW Power, AliExpress) for a smaller 17A or 20A KT controller. It is utterly bewildering and I frankly can't believe some of the descriptions. I did find one with PSW, but it's not clear whether it takes a 5-in-1 or 4-in1 cable, and they don't sell either separately anyway!
Decisions, decisions. An hour ago it was "the 15A will be fine, just don't stress it too much" and now it's "go for the 22A and worry about fitting it when it arrives".

I ran a 14A for nearly 10 years at 48v. It never overheated. I now have a smallish 22A one. It's miles too powerful at 48v for legal riding, and it does get quite hot on long climbs at full power. 22A would only make sense if you want to ride ar 20 mph or more, or if you want to be really lazy.

 

[Cadence]

It's a Yose "250w" AKM95RX cassette hub that @Slightlypedantic (of this parish) managed to find out from Yose is wound for 190-200rpm. I think he also calculated that it was around 8:1 gearing. If I derestrict it it tops out at about 18mph with the 36V. Yose 18A. controller.
The main driver for this is to try current control. I'm not really bothered about higher speed, but more torque up hills would be nice. I know I could when I move to 48v. but it's what happens while I'm still using 36v. that concerns me. I don't want to find that the KT 15A is less capable than the Yose 18A.
What's now confused me further is that your experience seems to contradict NealH. He switched to a KT 9 mosfet 22A because he found that the 15A was prone to overheating. He didn't say if that was on 36v. 48V or both though?

 

[Nealh]

The overheating of the 6 mosfet controllers occurs if you have a low cadence and can't pedal very fast up hill , if one can keep to 8mph or more then they should be ok on hills.

 

[Nealh]

One can buy the T06S six mosfet controllers with three differing current ratings ,
15a , 17a & 20a .
If you want a T06S rated for 17 or 20a then look on AliExp for a seller that sells them.

 

[Nealh]

T06S 17A.
Electric Bicycle Sine Wave Controller, Brushless, KT 15A-30A, 36V, 48V, 250W-1000W, Bicycle Accessories - AliExpress 18

Brushless Motor Controller for eBike, KT 15A-50A, 250W-3000W, Wheel Motor Controller - AliExpress 18

KT Electric Bike Waterproof Controller 15A-30A Without Light Cable Plug 250W350W500W750W1000W Squarewave Controller - AliExpress 18

 

[saneagle]

It's a Yose "250w" AKM95RX cassette hub that @Slightlypedantic (of this parish) managed to find out from Yose is wound for 190-200rpm. I think he also calculated that it was around 8:1 gearing. If I derestrict it it tops out at about 18mph with the 36V. Yose 18A. controller.
The main driver for this is to try current control. I'm not really bothered about higher speed, but more torque up hills would be nice. I know I could when I move to 48v. but it's what happens while I'm still using 36v. that concerns me. I don't want to find that the KT 15A is less capable than the Yose 18A.
What's now confused me further is that your experience seems to contradict NealH. He switched to a KT 9 mosfet 22A because he found that the 15A was prone to overheating. He didn't say if that was on 36v. 48V or both though?

I'm pretty sure that my 22A controller is 6 MOSFETs. It's bigger than a 15A one, but not as big as a 9 MOSFET one.

If you stay at 36v, 15A will be less powerful than your 18A one, as power is proportional to volts x amps.

 

[thelarkbox]

Thanks for looking. I am now in two minds after Nealh's input. At some point I will go 48v. and he suggests that the KT 15A may overheat. If I go with the 15A I'm concerned that it will not perform as well on 36v. as the Yose 18A controller I already have. That is neatly fitted in a black enclosure on the rear rack struts behind the seat tube and the 15A KT will fit inside it without further modifications.

View attachment 60090
Logic says I should go with the 9 mosfet KT 22A, and just turn down the amps to suit whichever voltage I'm using, but it is too big for the enclosure. I've made up a cardboard box template of the controller and tried against the bike. I can get a black enclosure 150mm x 82mm x 47 that it will fit in, but it is a tight squeeze behind the seat tube and it will look huge!
Meanwhile I've been searching all the usual suspects (BMS Battery, GreenBikeKIt, PSW Power, AliExpress) for a smaller 17A or 20A KT controller. It is utterly bewildering and I frankly can't believe some of the descriptions. I did find one with PSW, but it's not clear whether it takes a 5-in-1 or 4-in1 cable, and they don't sell either separately anyway!
Decisions, decisions. An hour ago it was "the 15A will be fine, just don't stress it too much" and now it's "go for the 22A and worry about fitting it when it arrives".

In my very limited experience with 1x 4into1 cable (yose kit)
and 1 x 5 to 1 cable spare bike retrofit to julet connectors (what was I thinking!!).

Both plug into the same controller socket ok and work as expected. (I pulled the 4 in 1 cable of my yose bike and used it to test aspects of the back up bike rebuild (same one in bits atm) while its 5 to 1 cable was still in transit..

 

[Cadence]

T06S 17A.
Electric Bicycle Sine Wave Controller, Brushless, KT 15A-30A, 36V, 48V, 250W-1000W, Bicycle Accessories - AliExpress 18

Brushless Motor Controller for eBike, KT 15A-50A, 250W-3000W, Wheel Motor Controller - AliExpress 18

KT Electric Bike Waterproof Controller 15A-30A Without Light Cable Plug 250W350W500W750W1000W Squarewave Controller - AliExpress 18

Many thanks indeed for finding those for me. I can't have everything, but I really didn't want the extra plugs for front and rear lights, but I could always cut them off and isolate the wires.
One of the sinewave listings comes complete with 5-in-cable, so I'll probably go for that.
The 17A should cover all the bases for me. Current control, able to at least match my Yose controller while I still use 36v., fit in my existing enclosure box and offer a route to 48v.
Thanks again!

 

[Cadence]

Just to round this off, I've managed to find and order a 20A KT sinewave controller from PSW Power (via one of their ebay vendor names - elifebike 2). At 96x61x35mm it will fit in the enclosure on my hybrid and I'll be using it at 18A to compare with the Yose controller. There's also a KT LCD-3 display on the way from Topbikekit.
I'm looking forward to seeing if I can get it to work with my existing Yose 4-in-1 cable, throttle, PAS sensor and brake sensor. I suspect that the soldering iron will be getting some exercise!

 

[saneagle]

Just to round this off, I've managed to find and order a 20A KT sinewave controller from PSW Power (via one of their ebay vendor names - elifebike 2). At 96x61x35mm it will fit in the enclosure on my hybrid and I'll be using it at 18A to compare with the Yose controller. There's also a KT LCD-3 display on the way from Topbikekit.
I'm looking forward to seeing if I can get it to work with my existing Yose 4-in-1 cable, throttle, PAS sensor and brake sensor. I suspect that the soldering iron will be getting some exercise!

If you have the 4-in 1 cable for any controller other than a KT, it probably won't work with a KT because the connector wiring is different. be careful, you can do some damage if the wrong wires connect.