KT-LCD1 to KT-LCD3

[Alan Lowery]

I fitted a conversion kit from Cyclotricity. A 250w/1000w motor and controller. This came with a KT-LCD1, which the first one had to be replaced by them as param P6 did not appear to allow derestriction. The replacement came and immediately worked. I can only think that it must have had a different firmware, as everything else worked identically.
Cyclotricity's support was excellent, and they sent the replacement out next day delivery.
I have just sent them a query with regard to upgrading to a KT-LCD3 that I have,and what to set the parameters to. As there is no P6 parameter to de-restrict. Can anyone else help?

My motor is marked with JDLAX1707RD0016 28" -48V"250W Restricted". Does anyone have the tech spec on this motor?

 

[harrys]

I have KT LCD3 and it sets the max speed from the first user setting screen that is always available. It does work. I have on bike limited to 16 mph and it shuts off there. I'm thinking that if you change to an LCD-3, you should see the same result. I've used the LCD3 on four or five KT controllers and it works the same.

Beyond the user settings (max speed, wheel diameter, metric/English, centigrade/farenheit.) there are additional P and C settings. Most of us can use the default values, but there are a few that may be specific to your kit. You can download the manual.

 

[Alan Lowery]

I have KT LCD3 and it sets the max speed from the first user setting screen that is always available. It does work. I have on bike limited to 16 mph and it shuts off there. I'm thinking that if you change to an LCD-3, you should see the same result. I've used the LCD3 on four or five KT controllers and it works the same.

Beyond the user settings (max speed, wheel diameter, metric/English, centigrade/farenheit.) there are additional P and C settings. Most of us can use the default values, but there are a few that may be specific to your kit. You can download the manual.

As stated in my post, my motor is a 250W/1000W. The kit came with a LCD1, and this unlocked the 1000W by the use of parameter P6. I have copied all parameter settings on to my LCD3, but it doesn't have P6, therefore it all works great at 250W, but it doesn't unlock the 1000W power.
I have emailed Cyclotricity and they have replied, but are being a bit evasive about the info. If they would provide the motor characteristics (spec) such as Motor Gear Reduction Ratio × Number of Rotor Magnets etc. I might be able to figure this out myself. I suspect that they may have a different firmware for the LCD1 that they send out with the kit, as the first one they sent me didn't detect my motor size and didn't give me P6. The replacement they sent me worked out of the box.

 

[harrys]

Sounds like you must have a generic LCD3 like everyone else has. Yours has a C5 setting of 10 for max current? I didn't think they can otherwise limit the current. I have LCD3's on small/big motors. WIth 52V, I could get 900 Watts into a Q100 motor with a 20A controller. Over 1200W on 52V into a Bafang fatbike motor.

Maybe my LCD1 controller is not what you call an LCD-1. BMSbattery calls it one, It doesn't show watts. Runs a 250W Bafang SWXH to about 20 mph on 36V and 24 mph on 48V.

 

[wheeliepete]

Alan, upload a photo of your LCD and controller, it may help.

 

[Nealh]

Cyclotricity may have customer optional programming for their KT controllers, so may well have the extra function to suit their illegal dual mode.

 

[Alan Lowery]

Alan, upload a photo of your LCD and controller, it may help.

I've uploaded the KT-LCD1, KT-LCD3, motor and controller

 

[wheeliepete]

OK, so it's a 30 amp KT controller. With the LCD 3 fitted, I would have expected the motor to run at max. power, not restricted. Is your C5 setting on max? AFAIK, a motor cannot be restricted in itself, it's the power it receives that governs it's output. All I can think is that the controller firmware has also be altered and will only run at full power when connected to your LCD1.

 

[Alan Lowery]

OK, so it's a 30 amp KT controller. With the LCD 3 fitted, I would have expected the motor to run at max. power, not restricted. Is your C5 setting on max? AFAIK, a motor cannot be restricted in itself, it's the power it receives that governs it's output. All I can think is that the controller firmware has also be altered and will only run at full power when connected to your LCD1.

Yes. C5 is set to max 10.

P1 - 46
P2 - 0
P3 - 1
P4 - 0
P5 - 15
P6 - 99 (only on LCD1)
C1 - 2
C2 - 0
C3 - 8
C4 - 0
C5 - 10
C6 - 3
C7 - 0
C8 - 0
C9 - 0
C10 - n
C11 - 0
C12 - 4
C13 - 0
C14 - 2

 

[wheeliepete]

Looks like you are stuck with the LCD1 if you want to retain the 250/1000 watt function, unless you get a new KT controller to fit with the LCD3.

 

[Alan Lowery]

Looks like you are stuck with the LCD1 if you want to retain the 250/1000 watt function, unless you get a new KT controller to fit with the LCD3.

Yes. I was coming to that conclusion. Once I found out that the controller was programmable, I realised that this must be where the function must be that ties the system to the LCD1.
I’ve been looking at this article as a possible solution, but aren’t willing to hack my only controller. Yet. https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/windows_instructions/

 

[Tryker]

I'm in a similar position as I have the Cyclotricity 250/1000W kit, however I would check your controller as, according to the programming hack link you posted, the ZWS type controllers can not be hacked (correction: it looks like there is a programming interface marked SOFT on my controller. The problem with this hack seems to be something to do with Sinewave control/Field Oriented Control, which I'm not sure how this applies, or not, to the Cyclotricity system.) using that software and hardware mod. It looks like the only option is to replace the controller with one that works with a KT-LCD3 unit but you would lose the power level control.
I have been looking at a Cycle Analyst to do the control, but from my understanding this would still be unable to override the controller's programming and the KT-LCD1 provided by Cyclotricity seems the only way to do the switch. The CA would be able to control the power settings of a suitable controller though, as it can store 3 power settings which would allow duplication of the Cyclotricity setting. This effectively means replacing all the control electronics provided by Cyclotricity and looks like quite an expensive option although does have a power meter included.
I've also looked at adding a CA connector to the ZWS controller so this can do all the power control, but even this would need the KT-LDC1 to set the controller to output its full power via the P6 parameter.
I'm not sure if I've fully understood the problems yet as I've only just started researching this.

 

[awol]

How about try C11 to 1, maybe the controller is not LCD3 compatible? I have an old S12S I'm sure I had to set C11 to 1, I don't think watts are displayed.

C11 value Meter Attribute
0-Meter uses LCD3 new version of communication protocol, it is compatible with LCD1 and LCD2.
1-Meter uses LCD1 and LCD2 old version communication protocol, it is not compatible LCD3.
Is P1 at 46 correct? Does the display show the correct speed compared to a GPS app and the motor run smooth under load?

 

[Hightechpete]

I got no answer from cyclotricity regarding using an LCD3 with their front wheel kit, so I e-mailed KT with a photo of my controller asking the same question.
I got a reply within hours :-

'Hi Peter,
I checked your controller, there is not special setting so you just buy a new LCD3 for replacement.'

Worth a try?.

 

[Hightechpete]

My Yose power kit arrived this morning, the motor wheel was installed into a 130mm dropout without any issues, it almost fell in after removing a spacer that was installed behind the cassette on the old wheel.

Here's hoping the photos will work this time :-

Not much clearance, but adequate. All the gears select smoothly without adjustment.

Torque washers installed on outside will need a blob of weld and a little work with a file to ensure a snug fit.

Wheel needs a to be dished a couple of mil to centralize.

Going back to my original question regarding the use of the LCD3 on a Cyclotricity front wheel kit, I can confirm that it seems to work fine. I haven't changed any parameters or taken it for a run yet, but everything seemed to just plug and play.

From here on I'm going to need a little help, or at least reassurance.

As I said in http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/yose-power-kits-back-in-stock.31927/ the plan was to use the new kit as throttle only, and use the LCD and PAS on the other bike, I'll try to explain the issues which I think are due to the different controllers.

This is the Cyclotricity controller which has a Speed set: 1-4.2v.
This works on throttle only, if the little blanking plug is fitted instead of a display. The plug bridges contacts 1 and 5, also 3 and 4.

The Yose power controller has Speed set: Hall Sensor and doesn't work with throttle only if I use the blanking plug.

I suppose I could swap the controllers from one bike to another as they are close in maximum amperage, but that would involve extra work with cable lengths and different battery connectors.
Can anyone suggest another workaround, in order to get throttle only on the Hall sensor controller?

Pete.

 

[Tryker]

I'm assuming that diagram refers to the green connector which normally goes to the LCD panel. I've just belled out my cable to the controller and the links appear to be +ve volts (pin1) to the 'on' line (pin5). The others link TXdata(pin3) to RXdata(pin4) in the controller. The throttle would be connected through the yellow connector.
Is this link plug supplied by Cyclotricity for a display less system?
If so this confirms (with the fact that a replacement LCD was needed to enable the 1000W setting) that the P6 parameter only appears in a Cyclotricity modded KT-LCD1.

 

[Hightechpete]

Hi Tryker, I'm so sorry, I appear to have posted in your thread by mistake. It was meant to go into my previous thread about Yose power kits.
If I delete it now, it will confuse readers.

Anyway your assumption is completely correct regarding the green connector, the throttle connector and the link plug.

How this appertains to your problem is beyond me I'm afraid, until today I'd never even seen an LCD in the flesh, and the parameter settings are a treat in store.
Have you contacted KT, they may be able to help, I got a very quick reply.

 

[Alan Lowery]

Looks like you are stuck with the LCD1 if you want to retain the 250/1000 watt function, unless you get a new KT controller to fit with the LCD3.

Cyclotricity definitely don't want to give any info for some reason:

Me:
I have the 250w/1000w rear wheel conversion kit. I would like to change the KT-LCD1 display for a KT-LCD3, for the extra functionality. P6 is not available. Are there any other C params that I would need to change?

Cyclotricity:
yeah you will need to change all of the setting but you will be told this in the instructions.

Me:
Thanks for the reply, but which instructions? I have the manual for the KT-LCD3. It doesn't have P6 like the KT-LCD1. I need the tech specs for my motor to be able to set up the P and C parameters on the LCD3. My motor is a JDLAX1707RD0016 marked 28" -48V"250W Restricted" Supplied by yourselves, through Powerbikes in Whitehaven.

Cyclotricity:
Normaly the LCD3 comes with instructions to tell you how to change the settings on the bike. did you not get any paper work?

Me:
Am I right in thinking that the KT controller supplied in your kit is programmed to require connection to only the KT-LCD1 before it will supply the current to achieve the full 1000W? Therefore connecting it to a different display will not work (will only supply 250W).

Cyclotricity:
yes that's correct you will need the 1000w controller to get the 1000w power from your wheel, but you can limit it to 250w if you set it to that on the on bar display,

Give Up

 

[Tryker]

Hi Tryker, I'm so sorry, I appear to have posted in your thread by mistake. It was meant to go into my previous thread about Yose power kits.
If I delete it now, it will confuse readers.

Anyway your assumption is completely correct regarding the green connector, the throttle connector and the link plug.

How this appertains to your problem is beyond me I'm afraid, until today I'd never even seen an LCD in the flesh, and the parameter settings are a treat in store.
Have you contacted KT, they may be able to help, I got a very quick reply.

I was replying to Alan but I found your comment interesting. Unfortunately I can't see a simple solution to your problem either, doh! I suspect that the Yose wiring may be different so looking inside and tracing its connections may be the only way to work out a solution: if the linking of data TX and RX is possible and a link for the key ('on') signal to make a throttle work. The terminology of speed set hall is a little confusing because a throttle is a hall sensor powered from the controller. I'm guessing it's possible to make this work but is probably just a wiring issue. I could be wrong.

 

[Tryker]

Cyclotricity definitely don't want to give any info for some reason:

Me:
I have the 250w/1000w rear wheel conversion kit. I would like to change the KT-LCD1 display for a KT-LCD3, for the extra functionality. P6 is not available. Are there any other C params that I would need to change?

Cyclotricity:
yeah you will need to change all of the setting but you will be told this in the instructions.

Me:
Thanks for the reply, but which instructions? I have the manual for the KT-LCD3. It doesn't have P6 like the KT-LCD1. I need the tech specs for my motor to be able to set up the P and C parameters on the LCD3. My motor is a JDLAX1707RD0016 marked 28" -48V"250W Restricted" Supplied by yourselves, through Powerbikes in Whitehaven.

Cyclotricity:
Normaly the LCD3 comes with instructions to tell you how to change the settings on the bike. did you not get any paper work?

Me:
Am I right in thinking that the KT controller supplied in your kit is programmed to require connection to only the KT-LCD1 before it will supply the current to achieve the full 1000W? Therefore connecting it to a different display will not work (will only supply 250W).

Cyclotricity:
yes that's correct you will need the 1000w controller to get the 1000w power from your wheel, but you can limit it to 250w if you set it to that on the on bar display,

Give Up

I've researched this as extensively as seems possible and it boils down to Cyclotricity being cagey about their kit. I can only assume that they have made some mods but are unwilling to release what they are. The P6 parameter is completely undocumented by anyone other than Cyclotricity and there doesn't appear to be a solution.
I'm only just learning this stuff so class myself as a novice although I am an electronics engineer.
From all that I've discovered Cyclotricity say that their LCD is needed to unlock the high power mode. This is confirmed by your initial wrong one supplied to you. I don't know how the controller is crippled to 250W until their P6 code is entered and only their KT-LCD1 has the P6 parameter available. It is possible that the C codes of the KT-LCD3 may be possible to unlock the controller but knowing what code is a mystery: Cyclotricity seem unwilling to provide this information, if it is available, from what you say. The upshot is that it looks like the controller is restricted and locked to the Cyclotricity KT-LCD1.
I can only assume that they have a custom program on the controller and there is no obvious way around this.
The only possible workaround that I can see is to use something like their LCD1 and mod the controller to take a direct plug Cycle Analyst to control the power delivered to the motor used in tandem OR replace the controller for one that's compatible with the KT-LCD3. This would leave you with a potentially illegal system (although it may be argued that the Cyclotricity system is dubious in its legality anyway), but I think you can set the LCD3 to run the system at the reduced power level, but switching between power levels may not be as straightforward as the P6 parameter switch. All in all it looks like an awkward and unacceptable position from Cyclotricity. I am becoming not so impressed. It also means, if this is correct, that the controller won't work with anything else as the rating on its label is incorrect.