kit for loaded touring in the mountains/hills?

[jonk]

Hi Everyone,
just joined the forum and would like some advice if possible.

So, I'm a fit cyclist who likes to go cycle touring with my better half. She, however is a lot less fit, but does ok on the flat. We've done some nice easy tours along some of the rivers in France, and we manage to bimble along at 16/17 mph as long as there is no headwind and the road stays pretty horizontal. As soon as the wind blows the wrong way our speed drops in half, and if the road goes upwards my name is mud for the rest of the day! Still I'm lucky that she enjoys most of it and actually does get stuck in when the hilly bits can't be avoided.

As I carry all the camping gear she doesn't have to carry alot, maybe around 6kg, and she weighs around the 55kg mark. The frame I've got is her old Specialized Rockhopper which has rigid forks, steel from about 1997, but is a really nice strong frame. I've got most of the rest of it on the spares shelf. So I reckon the bike built might weigh 15kg. Add a hub kit and battery and I'm guessing the all up weight might be around 85ish kg?

Now, I would really like to go back to the Alps and Pyrenees, so I'm wondering if there are any combinations of equipment that you would recommend for her. The climbs I'm talking about are not steep like in this country, maybe 7% average, but with bits that might go up to 10 or 11% for a km or two. Obviously the problem is the length of some of the climbs, up to 30km.
Speed of climbing isn't an issue, she will be going faster than me! I'll be lucky to average 5 or 6mph on those gradients. Likewise on the flat she is ok doing 16mph unassisted, so I think she will be able to help the bike out going upwards.
I'm not looking to do more than one of those a day, with a little bit of flatter valley cycling either end to and from campsites. A normal day on a river valley would see us do about 25 to 40 km, and the bike would only really get used for holidays and the odd day out, not day to day.

I've maintained our bikes for years, and am fairly practical, so will be DIYing. Budget up to £500.

Thanks in advance for any pointers you can give me.

 

[Nealh]

For the EU you most definitely need a 250w complaint hub unless you fancy taking a risk with 500w.
Complete kits available from Panda bikes or Woosh alternately kits available on ebay.
The SWX02 would be a good starting point for a legal kit.

 

[jonk]

Thanks for replying Neath. I'll check out the swx02.
I've done a bit of reading on here and ES and was wondering about the xiongda dual speed hub?
Also I like your suggestion of keeping to around 250w , as I can't move very fast anyway, so I guess torque instead of speed makes sense.
Do you think this type of hub could run at full power for a couple of hours (climbing) without overheating and burning out?

 

[Nealh]

2hrs continual climbing might be achievable with moderate hills with some 10% inclines though you will need a low rpm wound hub and be able to keep the speed above 7/8mph.
The Xiongda will be better but you are in to 250w+ rating in EU, depends on how active plod are over there in checking.

 

[jonk]

I'm not sure how actively they check ebikes, I guess even if they aren't doing it now, they may do in the future. You rarely see them at all in the mountains.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Checking might become fashionable since they caught the first guy using a motor in 3rd division club racing here last week...

She won't be able to ride up at the same speed as you, she will have to ride on ahead, stop for a bit until you catch up, repeat. Any decent 250 W hub motor will do the job, what you need for a long climb is a battery with decent cells capable of 15 Amps continuous output.

Second option the GSM mid drive with a couple of chainwheels, one for climbing and one for the flat, 32-44 would be a good combo. And... get an IKEA trailer and she tows the camping gear! That way she, low geared, and you, lighter, will be climbing at almost the same speed!

 

[Woosh]

for moderate mountain, 6 miles, 800m climb, rupert1 reported his exeprience with the SWX02 on his woosh Bermuda here:
http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/france-on-a-woosh.28220/
If you add a trailer to the bike, then I would recommend the larger Bafang BPM / woosh Big Bear.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?bigbear
For steeper mountains, I would recommend the BBS02 CD kit.
http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?cdkit

 

[jonk]

Thanks for all your input, definitely food for thought. I read your link with interest whoosh. It was good to see some people climbing similar mountains to what I have in mind.

So what I've taken in so far is:

1) a hub motor is capable of this sort of work without overheating if it is run at around its best speed

2) The battery has to be capable of a continuous discharge of 15a.

I'm erring towards a hub motor, because she doesn't have much "mechanical sympathy" and I think there is a chance she may run a cd in the wrong gear. I'm not going to be around to encourage her to change, as I will be a long way back on these climbs.

Now, another thing I took from the link was the suggestion that you would gain range/elevation gain by going slower. Would this be by reducing the assist level on the controls? Also, might this not take you away from the motor's most efficent rpm? I don't quite understand the relationship between these two things.
Speed is really not an issue for us, 15.5mph assist on the flat will be fine, any climbing speed of about 6 or 7mph will still be faster than me, so she will be waiting around anyway.

I build my own wheels, so would probably try and buy a kit with a hub rather than a full wheel to reduce postage. I'm thinking of sourcing the battery in the uk, so if anyone can point me towards something suitable, that would be great.
@anotherkiwi, you've read my mind, I think a trailer might be a bit OTT, but in my mind she's already carrying the tent!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The Xiongda 2-speed would be perfect, but there's some complications in fitting one, though if you have steel forks with rim brakes, a front one would be very straight-forward. The back one is quite wide. It's still possible to fit it in a Rockhopper frame, but you'd probably need to stretch it a bit and use a sizeable dish in the wheel.

Apart from that, any 180 rpm hub-motor would be OK. definitely, don't go higher than 201 rpm. The problem with a hub-motor is going too slow, so if she slows down to stay with you, she'll burn out the motor or pop a mosfet or two. That's not a problem for the Xiongda.

Any crank-drive motor would be OK, but they're a little over your budget.

Also, I'd recommend a controller that uses current control, which will allow her to turn down the power on the long climbs, which will help her to stay as slow as you and reduce the heating of the motor. AFAIK, Kunteng are the only easy to get current control controllers.

I'm thinking that a suitable starting point would be a 201 rpm Q100H, S06S controller, LCD, throttle and PAS from BMSBattery, then choose whatever battery you want - everything 36v.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

From the other thread, this looks like good value. It's a crank-drive that fits your budget:

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2015-93-QDKT.6P4CE

 

[Nealh]

Hi Jonk,
You will need to decide which route to go regarding motor watts, whether to stay with a legal one or to go for more W's.
LCD with 5 pas levels with torque control controller ( like the KT models from PSWP or BMSB) gives more choice, levels 4 & 5 are undiscernible on flat ground but really come in to play on climbs as the higher amps supplied relate to torque at the wheel. The TDSZ2 is a torque sensored drive so relies heavily on the riders input for the power to be delivered, afaik doesn't have the wattage marked on the unit so you could use the 350 or 500. I believe the only real difference is the extra windings have a differing rpm so drive chain set up will need to match. Possible an adhesive ali label with motor specs 250w could be added to look professional, available for about £3 on ebay.
Battery wise from Eclipse bikes these will be good for your needs.
http://eclipsebikes.com/product_info.php?products_id=107
http://eclipsebikes.com/product_info.php?products_id=143
http://eclipsebikes.com/product_info.php?products_id=144
The 29E giving the extra range looks quite good esp at the cells are arranged as 6 in parallel, other wise the 30Q is the one to have.
Another possibility as ahs been mentioned is a trailer but
not the 2 wheel variety instead consider a more streamlined single wheel one, for lower gravity and better stability.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B-Single-Wheel-Bicycle-Bike-Trailer-Storage-Bag-Shock-Absorption-One-Wheel-/371391106887?epid=12003303488&hash=item5678a28f47:g:gJMAAOSw5FNZjaNf

 

[Woosh]

From the other thread, this looks like good value. It's a crank-drive that fits your budget:

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2015-93-QDKT.6P4CE

I question the wisdom of climbing a mountain using a torque system.
If you are sure you can supply at least 30% of the energy required then ok, otherwise, prepare for a hard slog.
A crank drive needs to be kept at reasonably high RPM (60-100 rpm) to avoid overheating the motor. A torque system requires you to input between 25% to 50% of the required energy. Combine the two requirements will result in you making a constant effort, not just to pedal hard, but also keep the bike in the best gear, and often, the best gear for your leg strength is not the same for the motor and does not give the right cadence.
Whereas a geared hub lets you deal with just one requirement, as long as you can keep your speed at over 8 mph, the motor won't overheat.

 

[jonk]

I am drawn towards the xiongda hub. I'm not sure why it appeals, I think it might be the idea that it can be run at close to its ideal rpm, but still go up the hill quite slowly with lots of torque to spare in this application. This would probably be handy if we use the bike in the UK, as the gradients can be a lot more severe.
I can spread the rockhopper a bit, its 135mm at the moment. Do you think a 26" wheel can still be pretty strong with the extra dish? she is only 55kg +10 kg load.

Can either of the controllers supplied by xiongda be used as current controllers? I think you can't use any others because of the gear change?

Batteries options look great. I'll have to measure up, but should be ok as the frame has a horizontal top tube giving a large triangle.
I'm not too concerned about the legality of the hub, We are unlikely to be drawing too much attention to ourselves hooning around pulling wheelies etc. I think xiongda will laser etch 250w onto it if asked.

I think I will steer away from cd at this stage, I think keeping it simple for her is probably the way forward.
Thanks again everyone

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I installed those Xiongdas in three different bikes, For the first two, I just stretched the frame a bit, then installed the motor with a fair dish in in the wheel. The last one was was a full suspension bike that I stretched all the way to 150mm, which allowed me to install an undished wheel with extra spacers on the left side of the axle. For that, I had to move the caliper adaptor inboard by spacing it from the frame with washers. That worked fine for three years, but the brake did sing a bit, presumably because of the slightly less rigid mounting. An alternative would have been to space the disc from the motor, which might have been better. Get the 48v Xiongda. It's a lot better than the 36v one for extreme winching, though you can solder the shunt in the 36v controller to increase it up to 20 amps, which then makes it equal to the 48v one regarding torque. 20 amps means that you'd need a decent battery capable of 20 amps continuous, like the Eclipse 30Q ones.

 

[jonk]

Righto, thanks d8veh. The bike has v brakes so hopefully won't be effected. I like the idea of a dishless rear wheel. I wonder if xiongda still do the 135mm rim brake version?
Back too the controllers supplied by xiongda, is one better than the other for limiting climbing speed without gnerating inefficiency/heat. I think one is called lishui, the other is a kt