Kalkhoff's shameful documentation

[103Alex1]

Tim

That link does not work and neither does copying it into browser. Would be good if you can repost it here with a proper link.

Sorry to deviate but whilst I remember, are bikes sold in October 2012 updated with the 2013 Impulse firmware ? If not can you please advise how to go about this ? Getting bike to 50 Cycles is not an option. Many thanks.

 

[Spinalot]

With the full respect you deserve, I offer the following rebuttal

03 05 means it was released on 5th March.

Still does not account for the fact that it does not match the battery lights and charger I have.

If there's a better electric bike manual available than that one, I'd be very
surprised.

This may be the best ever manual ever produced by anyone at any time. That does not make it good.

99% of Kalkhoff owners have found it very useful and informative, but it's further proof that you cannot please all of the people all of the time.

How have you arrived at this figure?
The manuals, because that is what you get, (1 x generic manual and then separate ones for each models battery and motor options) Are not that well produced in my opinion, and 99% of owners agree with me. (see what I did there?)
Why can you not strive to please everyone?
Tim, I am not having a go at 50Cycles, as I said in my other posts 50Cycles have provided a good service and helped to sort me out and make me happy with my purchase. Anyone that asks me what the service is like form 50cycles would get this answer.

"the products are top drawer and the service is excellent"

I hope my concerns do not hinder any future service I hope to receive either.
Enter the debate meaningfully and pass on the issues you see here to Kalkhoff. That would be a better way forward. You get no brownie points by being over-defensive.

 

[Spinalot]

Tim

That link does not work and neither does copying it into browser. Would be good if you can repost it here with a proper link.

Sorry to deviate but whilst I remember, are bikes sold in October 2012 updated with the 2013 Impulse firmware ? If not can you please advise how to go about this ? Getting bike to 50 Cycles is not an option. Many thanks.

Alex, I asked this when I bought my bike in regards to other future updates, the chap said they would be a way for the user to do it and they could talk you through the process. Hopefully Tim can confirm this for you.
I tried a few bikes when I was there and one had the old software the difference is remarkable. It feels like a different bike with the latest software.

 

[Tim]

i've since fixed it, but here it is again

http://manuals.derby-cycle.com/manuals/kalkhoff/en_kalkhoff_2012_20130305_03.pdf

 

[103Alex1]

Tim, can you PM me about my post no. 21 on this thread ? Ta.

 

[Spinalot]

Tim, I truly want to give you the respect you deserve but you make that very difficult.

It very clearly states: "After all five LEDs have gone out, the battery is fully charged. " in all versions of the manual covering the Impulse bikes.

So much for reading and understanding what I said in the original post.
...and after your last post

It's actually more like 99.99% i.e. nobody had reported a problem with the new manual, until today!

That makes me think you are not offering me the same respect I am trying to show you.

I just spent the most money I have ever spent on a bike, that I saved a year for, and am stating my dismay at the poor documentation that does NOT match what I have. Instead of entering with some meaningful dialogue you sound petulant.

*edit* I see the new manual does indeed share the same picture as my charger. Apologies that I only saw this now. However there is still a problem

1. So why have I had to go through this process to receive the correct manual and was not supplied with the correct one at time of purchase?
2. Why does this manual not accurately describe the lighting sequence that happens when I put my battery into the cradle?
3. Why are the Magura brakes not covered in any detail at all and it is left to the customer to find out by himself?

I could go on with descriptions of the poor documentation if you like?

 

[NRG]

I have to say that manual is one of the best I've seen, I never received anything as comprehensive as that when I bought by Pro Connect at the end of 2010...

 

[NRG]

Magura have some good setup videos on their site...more informative than a manual IMHO...

HS 11: MAGURA - The Passion People!

 

[50 Hertz]

I have to say that the manual does look much better than the one that I received with my bike and covers most of what an end user needs to know.

I think that it is unfair to expect the manual to go into detail about how to service individual components such as Magura brakes. Anything beyond the scope of actually using the bike is an extra, not an entitlement. Servicing the brakes or any other component part of the bike is something which should either be undertaken by a specialist or by the owner (if they have the knowledge and skill to do so). It is unreasonable to expect the manual to provide training / information on how to service individual parts. My car Owner's Manual does not tell me how to service the car for example, nor does it tell me how to renew the brake lining. The owner either takes it to a garage to have these tasks undertaken by a specialist or, if they have the necessary skill, they do it themselves. Its the same with a bike and its not the job of the author of the bike manual to provide training in bike maintenance.

 

[Spinalot]

You are wrong on this.
Why would they include information on servicing all brake types (calliper and disks) except the ones on mine if what you say is true? I am savvy enough to come looking for the information I need, but that does not mean that is how it should be.
A bike is nothing like a car as you say.
I am not talking about training I am talking about basic adjustments that a user should not have to travel to a bike shop to do. Even in their manual they describe checking your brakes before every ride.
The manual also has misleading and poorly described processes, as I have shown.
The part of the manual that deals with the battery does not match with what I am experiencing.

Please do not fall into the same trap that Tim has fallen into. This is NOT a criticism of 50Cycles. The service I received was as good as I would expect it to be. This is a legitimate concern for Kalkhoff. They have bunch all their bikes into one confusing bundle to save money. And their manuals in several places are incorrect.

 

[NRG]

I dont think 50Hertz is wrong on this but I do agree there should be some sort of adjustment guide on the HS11 given how comprehensive the manual is in other areas. You would have gone ballistic if you had received the manuals I did with my bike!

But we're all big boys now and while the manual is deficient in some areas (my new car manual from November last year is not completely up-to-date) it doesn't take much to pickup the phone and talk to somebody or go-online and find out whats what.

 

[martin@onbike]

In my experience it is EVERY E-bike manufacturer that supplies a rather poor manual/manuals-always something left uncovered.
I try to go through every adjustment with the customer on the day of purchase/collection to ensure they know how best to keep their new bikes operating correctly.

 

[Spinalot]

I dont think 50Hertz is wrong on this but I do agree there should be some sort of adjustment guide on the HS11 given how comprehensive the manual is in other areas. You would have gone ballistic if you had received the manuals I did with my bike!

But we're all big boys now and while the manual is deficient in some areas (my new car manual from November last year is not completely up-to-date) it doesn't take much to pickup the phone and talk to somebody or go-online and find out whats what.

But that is my point. I should not have to go online or pick up the phone. The information for basic operation of the bike. (I include brakes and brake adjustment in this) should be in the manual. Information about the battery and how to look after it should be clear for anyone to understand. Which IMO it is not.
For example on page 26 it seems I have to discharge the fully battery once to set it. Then on page 27 it tells me I need to do this three times. Now I was clear on this that I had to do it three times as I asked this question to the guy that sold me the bike. But if I had not asked beforehand I could have simply read page 26 only and shortened the life on my battery.
I stated in my OP that the manual was ok in parts. This is a gripe that it is not clear in all respects. It should be. I should also have been supplied with the most up to date manual at point of purchase or at the least told that there was a new one to download.

 

[50 Hertz]

I've just had a chance to look at the user manual and as others have noted, there isn't any reference to the Magura rim brakes (HS11). They should have included a few lines about these brakes. In particular, how to adjust for pad wear and operation of the caliper quick release lever would have been useful. This type of task is something which an end user could reasonably be expected to undertake as part of the day to day operation of the bike.

Generally, the manual seems quite comprehensive and a massive improvement on what was available only 3 or 4 years ago. I'm sure that the omission of Magura brake information is an oversight rather than a deliberate act intended to save money. I expect that 50 Cycles will be feeding this back to Derby Cycles on behalf of their UK customers and it will be included in future revisions of the manual.

 

[Spinalot]

As I suggested. Most of it is covered but there are things that are simply not right with the current model. If you saw my other thread about getting the wheel out. That is another example of the current bike not being the same as the one featured. The gear cable now runs inside the frame and you have 2" to 3" inches of cable to grip and pull the cap from the sleeve. An almost impossible task as described in the book.
Honestly unless you have an actual bike like I have for the first time and you have only the manual to go on some things have you scratching your head in frustration.
With respect, many of you commenting in defence of the manual are used to fiddling with bikes, I on the other hand am coming back after many years away. In other words, what may be common sense and simple to you is not to others. I only have what the manual tell me and in a few areas it is lacking.
Besides I have always hated when they make "generic" manual on any product range not just Kalkhoff's That was my overiding point of this thread.

 

[jackhandy]

Golden rule with any technical manual or user guide - Don't let anyone involved in the developement process write the manual: Get some numpty in who's never seen the kit before. Simples!

 

[flecc]

Golden rule with any technical manual or user guide - Don't let anyone involved in the developement process write the manual: Get some numpty in who's never seen the kit before. Simples!

Technical writer is a specific job, so inevitably manuals are usually written by those not involved in the product engineering development, since the latter are rarely capable of writing a coherent manual. That doesn't mean manuals have to be poor, other industries producing infinitely more complex products manage the designer/engineer/tech writer communication interfaces well.

 

[Streethawk]

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but i have noticed this worrying trend, it's not just ebikes but normal human powered bikes too. I have probably had around 30 bikes since the mid-nineties and progressively the documentation provided has got worse. My first quality bikes came with Shimano data sheets for each part of the gears/brakes and even my first Hope disc brake equipped bike in 1998 came with a Hope manual. My last purchase, a Trek Xcalibur 29er MTB came with just a standard manual that seems to be aimed at all Trek's range of bike, whether road, mountain or whatever, it doesn't detail how to setup the suspension for my weight even, something quite critical for a mountain bike with an air-sprung fork. Further, i couldnt find this information even on RockShox's website.

Bicycle manufacturers need to get their act together on this, especially on ebikes as there is considerable extra complexity. That being said, the above linked Kalkhoff manual is many times more informative than my Trek manual which is completely laughable.

 

[103Alex1]

^^ It's a bit like modern chainsaw manuals ... most of the new ones sweep up a load of servicing issues into "contact your dealer" ! It's the modern way it seems... progress equates to generating an ongoing revenue stream for the service industry

 

[flecc]

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but i have noticed this worrying trend, it's not just ebikes but normal human powered bikes too. I have probably had around 30 bikes since the mid-nineties and progressively the documentation provided has got worse. My first quality bikes came with Shimano data sheets for each part of the gears/brakes and even my first Hope disc brake equipped bike in 1998 came with a Hope manual. My last purchase, a Trek Xcalibur 29er MTB came with just a standard manual that seems to be aimed at all Trek's range of bike, whether road, mountain or whatever, it doesn't detail how to setup the suspension for my weight even, something quite critical for a mountain bike with an air-sprung fork. Further, i couldnt find this information even on RockShox's website.

Bicycle manufacturers need to get their act together on this, especially on ebikes as there is considerable extra complexity. That being said, the above linked Kalkhoff manual is many times more informative than my Trek manual which is completely laughable.

And in your post you've stated the root of the problem discussed in this thread.

E-bike manufacturers are just bicycle manufacturers who started tacking on motor systems at some point, Kalkhoff for example onto existing ordinary unpowered models like the Agattu and Pro Connect in 2007/8. And many of these bicycle manufacturers including Kalkhoff have made bikes for up to 100 years or more.

So they come from an era when bikes were so commonplace, standard and simple that everyone understood them, almost all could carry out the simple repairs and maintenance necessary and bike shops were everywhere. Accordingly bikes didn't need any manual, and I can say that when I joined the trade well over 60 years ago no new bikes we ever handled were supplied with them.

So it's a change of thinking that's needed. Bikes have become much more complex and variable over the decades and e-bikes have added hugely to the complexity. The industry needs to start thinking more like car and motorcycle manufacturers, supplying decent owner manuals with the products and also making available full technical manuals for those who want them as an extra. To keep costs down the latter could be as online PDF downloads.

Will it happen? I'm not holding my breath. A very few have made a good try and it has to be said that Kalkhoff are one of the better examples with considerable effort made in most areas. In their case the speed of introduction of new models and many different power units* has tripped them up at times so perhaps they need to pause and stabilise what they are doing.

*I count 7 very different power unit systems in the last 3 years in their models, and the number of model variants in that time is mind boggling.
.