The Ezze batteries are very easy but no I don't think it would be too difficult to do the Panasonic battery as there are some clearly defined lines to mask around. One would have thought the design would be more or less the same with the Kalkoff. The biggest problem would be the warranty. You would have to hope that 50 Cycles/Kalkhoff wouldn't wriggle out of a claim in the very unlikely event of having to make one.That's one way to make it less attractive to thieves.
Spraying a battery case is practical though. Below is a photo of a standard eZee battery case and one I
lengthened for more cells and sprayed shown alongside:
Kalkhoff Sahel Pro Disc.
- Thread starter Blew it
- Start date
I've posted in anther thread on an associated way of dealing with this matching issue:
Making the battery match
.
Making the battery match
.
Nope!
The first two bikes I owned were both heavy steel full-sussers with lead-acid batteries. They were both also very low geared. Add to this my very low fitness level at that time meant I did a lot of 'throttle-jockeying', pedalling away from a standstill and helping the machine on the hills.
Now, three years later, I have become a cyclist requiring a little help. When riding a hub-motored bike, I unconsciously use a whiff of throttle when starting off, but never ride soley on the throttle, it just doesn't seem natural to do so.
For normal mounted riding, a throttle is not needed on the Panasonic, the response to a press on the pedals is instantaneous, in fact, it's best to hold one brake on when waiting to shoot a junction. The first time I rode a Raleigh Dover, this quick response caught me out. Starting off with a hearty heave on the pedal and using the reaction to push my backside up onto the saddle, the Dover shot forward, the pedal reaching the bottom of the stroke long before I got my rear-end onto the saddle. I just needed to be a bit quicker mounting up.
Excellent as the Panasonic is at hill-climbing, there will be occasions when I have to walk the machine, A walk-along-side throttle will be fitted soon.
As this thread progresses, more will be revealed about the system, not that it hasn't been documented many times before. But hey!, Its a brilliant bit of kit, so it deserves a bit more exposure.
Regards
Bob
The first two bikes I owned were both heavy steel full-sussers with lead-acid batteries. They were both also very low geared. Add to this my very low fitness level at that time meant I did a lot of 'throttle-jockeying', pedalling away from a standstill and helping the machine on the hills.
Now, three years later, I have become a cyclist requiring a little help. When riding a hub-motored bike, I unconsciously use a whiff of throttle when starting off, but never ride soley on the throttle, it just doesn't seem natural to do so.
For normal mounted riding, a throttle is not needed on the Panasonic, the response to a press on the pedals is instantaneous, in fact, it's best to hold one brake on when waiting to shoot a junction. The first time I rode a Raleigh Dover, this quick response caught me out. Starting off with a hearty heave on the pedal and using the reaction to push my backside up onto the saddle, the Dover shot forward, the pedal reaching the bottom of the stroke long before I got my rear-end onto the saddle. I just needed to be a bit quicker mounting up.
Excellent as the Panasonic is at hill-climbing, there will be occasions when I have to walk the machine, A walk-along-side throttle will be fitted soon.
As this thread progresses, more will be revealed about the system, not that it hasn't been documented many times before. But hey!, Its a brilliant bit of kit, so it deserves a bit more exposure.
Regards
Bob
Route 45 passes under Devizes road in a very deep cutting. The trees have now met at their tops which makes it quite dark. And of course, the camera made light of what is actually a very dingey place, nice and cool though. With a slight down-slope on the track-bed down to Mannington, the Panasonic was switched off. Two natural springs running either side add to the permanent dampness of the track-bed here, not a place for semi-slicks. The Sahel was supplied with Schwalbe 26" x 2" Big Apple suspension tyres. From personal experience I knew these would be a bit too slick for the type of riding I do. Trail riding, which shouldn't be confused with more extreme sports, requires a tyre which will be sure-footed on wet compacted soil or chalk, but roll quietly and easily on tarmac. When I first started this kind of riding my preferred tyres were Specialized Crossroads Armadillos. An excellent tyre with a broad hemispherical tread pattern, but giving a harsh clattery ride on Tarmac as many Kevlar belted tyres do. What made me change to a different brand was the inconsistency in the quality of their construction. The Sahel is now fitted with my new preference, 26" x 2" Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tour, a very comfortable free-rolling tyre, with a good grippy tread to ensure the shiny-side stays up in slippery conditions. They are also slightly less expensive than the American tyres. The original Presta valved tubes were also changed for Schrader versions. Presta valves are fine for road bikes, but a bit too frail for trail riding.
Where an industrial estate was built on the original railway route, R45 plunges down a steep and stony chute ( the camera has flattened it, as usual ).
Braking hard for the sharp bend at the bottom, Sahel sent a few vicious thuds up through the handlebars, time to make myself 'light'.
Down on the flat, Sahel makes good speed on the smooth track, with no other sounds than the tyres padding along the limestone, and a subdued 'swish' 'swish' 'swish' as the Panasonic adds a little power to each pedal stroke. Bionics at work!.
The extended tea-break at Coate meant I was running late, I had to be home by 3pm, but I had time to visit another of my favourite places in Swindon. Previously accessible only on foot or two wheels, a quiet and peaceful place.
to be continued.......................
Where an industrial estate was built on the original railway route, R45 plunges down a steep and stony chute ( the camera has flattened it, as usual ).
Braking hard for the sharp bend at the bottom, Sahel sent a few vicious thuds up through the handlebars, time to make myself 'light'.
Down on the flat, Sahel makes good speed on the smooth track, with no other sounds than the tyres padding along the limestone, and a subdued 'swish' 'swish' 'swish' as the Panasonic adds a little power to each pedal stroke. Bionics at work!.
The extended tea-break at Coate meant I was running late, I had to be home by 3pm, but I had time to visit another of my favourite places in Swindon. Previously accessible only on foot or two wheels, a quiet and peaceful place.
to be continued.......................
Great read and pictures Blew it.
I often ride in similar terrain and find the Panasonic drive to be excellent.
I even switch it off occasionally when climbing a hill just to remind myself how good it is.
I'm sure your going to love this bike.
I often ride in similar terrain and find the Panasonic drive to be excellent.
I even switch it off occasionally when climbing a hill just to remind myself how good it is.
I'm sure your going to love this bike.
Part four
Unfortunately, this place has now been opened up as a local amenity, with two car parks at the end of a short road off Thamesdown Drive. The erection of a new fence with permanently locked gates means I will have to use a local cut-through, Also known as NCN Route 45. It starts off with smooth Tarmac, courtesy of the civil engineers responsible for Thamesdown Drive, but only as far as the old railway bridge where it turns into a narrow stony track.
Good ol' Sustrans. (don't get me started)
This little track joins another Tarmac path at the bottom of this steep slope, yep, the camera flattened it again.
And once again, when braking hard at the bottom, a few violent thumps up through the forks to remind me of the rigid front end. Whilst on the subject of brakes.
Serious stopping power. Shimano BR-M575 dual piston hydraulic brakes.
Be assured, if you really want to suffer the indignity of doing an end-over, the 575's will quite happily provide the wherewithall to do so!.
At last we arrive at Mouldon hill, just one of many very pretty lakes in Swindon, and as usual, it's deserted except for yours truly and the resident wildlife.
When I first rode this machine, I experimented a bit with the low assist and found it was enough in many instances. For some strange reason, on this ride I forgot all about it and left it in medium 1:1 assist and promptly dropped into leisure riding mode, although I did switch it off altogether coming down from Old Town. I blame this entirely on the Panasonics 'switch-it-on-and-forget-it' attribute.
The lightest press on a pedal is rewarded with instant assistance. Likewise, if the pedal pressure is removed, even half way down the stroke, the assistance stops immediately, the three freewheels disengage and the machine just coasts along without any drag from the drive-train. The Panasonic center-drive is a remarkably efficient system.
To be continued.................
Unfortunately, this place has now been opened up as a local amenity, with two car parks at the end of a short road off Thamesdown Drive. The erection of a new fence with permanently locked gates means I will have to use a local cut-through, Also known as NCN Route 45. It starts off with smooth Tarmac, courtesy of the civil engineers responsible for Thamesdown Drive, but only as far as the old railway bridge where it turns into a narrow stony track.
Good ol' Sustrans. (don't get me started)
This little track joins another Tarmac path at the bottom of this steep slope, yep, the camera flattened it again.
And once again, when braking hard at the bottom, a few violent thumps up through the forks to remind me of the rigid front end. Whilst on the subject of brakes.
Serious stopping power. Shimano BR-M575 dual piston hydraulic brakes.
Be assured, if you really want to suffer the indignity of doing an end-over, the 575's will quite happily provide the wherewithall to do so!.
At last we arrive at Mouldon hill, just one of many very pretty lakes in Swindon, and as usual, it's deserted except for yours truly and the resident wildlife.
When I first rode this machine, I experimented a bit with the low assist and found it was enough in many instances. For some strange reason, on this ride I forgot all about it and left it in medium 1:1 assist and promptly dropped into leisure riding mode, although I did switch it off altogether coming down from Old Town. I blame this entirely on the Panasonics 'switch-it-on-and-forget-it' attribute.
The lightest press on a pedal is rewarded with instant assistance. Likewise, if the pedal pressure is removed, even half way down the stroke, the assistance stops immediately, the three freewheels disengage and the machine just coasts along without any drag from the drive-train. The Panasonic center-drive is a remarkably efficient system.
To be continued.................
Part five
About the Alfine 8 speed hub:
Some riders have found up-shifts slower than down-shifts. I believe this is more to do with the shifter rather than the hub. When trying a Raleigh Dover, which uses a twist-shifter, I found both up and down shifts required only a brief pause in pedalling. Sahel uses the Rapidfire shifter, which is quite different in use. Up-shifts are by the rear thumb lever, which has quite a long travel before indexing. ( Is this being interpreted as the hub being slow on up-shifts? ). Down-shifts are effected by a quick press with the forefinger on the front lever, the hub's return spring snapping it back smartly. And of course, it's arse-about-face to the SIS thumb-shifter sometimes used with derailleurs. I'll have to confess to a quarter back-turn on the pedals, as I did in my youth riding Sturmey-Archer geared hubs, a pointless exercise on the Panasonic, the chain doesn't move when back-pedalling!.
19.4 miles, one light on the handlebars, two on the battery and 20 minutes to get back home and clean up ready for the next task of the day.
With 21.2 miles on the clock when I reached home, still with two lights on the battery, it would have been a good opportunity to do a full conditioning discharge, but due to the extended tea-break at Coate, this will have to be done at a later date.
The BMZ 18 ah battery will be fitted as soon as it becomes available. For an ultra-long ride, The 2.4 kg standard battery would be barely noticeable strapped on the rear carrier. With 28 ah onboard, I would probably fall asleep on the saddle before running out of battery power.
Day two to follow.......................................
About the Alfine 8 speed hub:
Some riders have found up-shifts slower than down-shifts. I believe this is more to do with the shifter rather than the hub. When trying a Raleigh Dover, which uses a twist-shifter, I found both up and down shifts required only a brief pause in pedalling. Sahel uses the Rapidfire shifter, which is quite different in use. Up-shifts are by the rear thumb lever, which has quite a long travel before indexing. ( Is this being interpreted as the hub being slow on up-shifts? ). Down-shifts are effected by a quick press with the forefinger on the front lever, the hub's return spring snapping it back smartly. And of course, it's arse-about-face to the SIS thumb-shifter sometimes used with derailleurs. I'll have to confess to a quarter back-turn on the pedals, as I did in my youth riding Sturmey-Archer geared hubs, a pointless exercise on the Panasonic, the chain doesn't move when back-pedalling!.
19.4 miles, one light on the handlebars, two on the battery and 20 minutes to get back home and clean up ready for the next task of the day.
With 21.2 miles on the clock when I reached home, still with two lights on the battery, it would have been a good opportunity to do a full conditioning discharge, but due to the extended tea-break at Coate, this will have to be done at a later date.
The BMZ 18 ah battery will be fitted as soon as it becomes available. For an ultra-long ride, The 2.4 kg standard battery would be barely noticeable strapped on the rear carrier. With 28 ah onboard, I would probably fall asleep on the saddle before running out of battery power.
Day two to follow.......................................
Last edited:
Day two.
Clambering up to Shaw Community Forest raised a few chuckles. (well it's no good crying when things go wrong is it!)
I reckoned Sahel would climb this short slope in 4th gear, high assist, but, as soon as I lifted my backside off the saddle, the wheel spun on the loose surface with each pedal stroke , bringing everything to a halt. Rolling back down to the start, I selected 3rd gear and tried again, this time remaining on the saddle to keep some weight on the back wheel. This time Sahel made it to the top with just a little occasional slippage, it may only be 26 volts , but there's a huge amount of climbing power available at the back wheel when needed.
Hub motor v center-drive
Hub-motored machines effectively have a single-speed electric motor. Typically, depending on it's internal gearing, useful assistance starts at around 6 mph with the 'sweet-spot' around 13 mph, once beyond this road speed the assistance diminishes quite quickly. The beauty of drive-through-the-chain systems such as Panasonic and others, is the motor has the same number of speeds as the road-gearing through which it provides assistance. In the case of Sahel with it's 8 speed hub, providing the correct ratio is selected, the motor is always, or very close too, the maximum assist available irrespective of road speed. I may have given the impression that a lot of thought is needed when riding Panasonic powered bikes, well there isn't, just switch it on and forget it. It will quite happily carry out it's task leaving you to enjoy the ride. When the 18 ah battery becomes available, you'll be able to leave it in high assist and enjoy a right old lazy ride.
There hasn't always been a forest here, the methane vent-pipe will give a clue to it's past usage.
For many years this was Swindons main land-fill site. It has now been capped with a three metre thick layer of clay and one metre of top-soil. Deep-rooting trees cannot be planted here, if their roots penetrate the cap into the toxic gunge below, their lives will be very short indeed. In front of a fine stand of healthy shallow rooting trees, the regularly mown but never used football pitch, why?, because none of the junior football teams that desperately need pitches can afford the £21,000 up-front payment demanded by the local Council. Such a shame!.
Rear end comfort is assured by an SR- Suntour short-link parallelogram seat-post, topped off with the excellent Selle Royal Respiro saddle.
Air goes in at the front..................
.....and exhausts up between the lobes, good news for one who eats a lot of fruit, if you see what I mean!.
To be continued............................................
Clambering up to Shaw Community Forest raised a few chuckles. (well it's no good crying when things go wrong is it!)
I reckoned Sahel would climb this short slope in 4th gear, high assist, but, as soon as I lifted my backside off the saddle, the wheel spun on the loose surface with each pedal stroke , bringing everything to a halt. Rolling back down to the start, I selected 3rd gear and tried again, this time remaining on the saddle to keep some weight on the back wheel. This time Sahel made it to the top with just a little occasional slippage, it may only be 26 volts , but there's a huge amount of climbing power available at the back wheel when needed.
Hub motor v center-drive
Hub-motored machines effectively have a single-speed electric motor. Typically, depending on it's internal gearing, useful assistance starts at around 6 mph with the 'sweet-spot' around 13 mph, once beyond this road speed the assistance diminishes quite quickly. The beauty of drive-through-the-chain systems such as Panasonic and others, is the motor has the same number of speeds as the road-gearing through which it provides assistance. In the case of Sahel with it's 8 speed hub, providing the correct ratio is selected, the motor is always, or very close too, the maximum assist available irrespective of road speed. I may have given the impression that a lot of thought is needed when riding Panasonic powered bikes, well there isn't, just switch it on and forget it. It will quite happily carry out it's task leaving you to enjoy the ride. When the 18 ah battery becomes available, you'll be able to leave it in high assist and enjoy a right old lazy ride.
There hasn't always been a forest here, the methane vent-pipe will give a clue to it's past usage.
For many years this was Swindons main land-fill site. It has now been capped with a three metre thick layer of clay and one metre of top-soil. Deep-rooting trees cannot be planted here, if their roots penetrate the cap into the toxic gunge below, their lives will be very short indeed. In front of a fine stand of healthy shallow rooting trees, the regularly mown but never used football pitch, why?, because none of the junior football teams that desperately need pitches can afford the £21,000 up-front payment demanded by the local Council. Such a shame!.
Rear end comfort is assured by an SR- Suntour short-link parallelogram seat-post, topped off with the excellent Selle Royal Respiro saddle.
Air goes in at the front..................
.....and exhausts up between the lobes, good news for one who eats a lot of fruit, if you see what I mean!.
To be continued............................................
Bob, changing the cog to increase speed, does this make much difference when it come to hill Climbing?
2011 bikes higher spec, probably overkill for me, but a hell of a lot more expensive, one of these may make more sense
We ever so umbly, follow in your wind so to speak
2011 bikes higher spec, probably overkill for me, but a hell of a lot more expensive, one of these may make more sense
We ever so umbly, follow in your wind so to speak
Not really Edd, the lowest gear I have had to use ( so far ) was 3rd, as you will see at the end of the thread. You may also recall I did not change the motor cog to an 11T, mainly because I didn't want to degrade the hill-climbing ability. To be honest, I was quite happy with the motor assisting to 17 mph, but, the cadence was a little too fast for comfort. It was for that reason that I upped the road gearing by fitting a 16T to the Alfine hub, but there was a downside to doing that.
As supplied, the assist had almost completely tapered off at 17 mph. This would be the road speed to aim at for the longest range per charge, as the motor would be pulling but a few amps at that speed. The problem was, I couldn't maintain the high cadence for any length of time. You may think the problem was solved by fitting the 16T to the hub, but it wasn't.
The Panasonic now stops assisting at 19mph, but the cadence at that speed is once again too fast, so I still can't pedal fast enough to keep the road-speed at the point of minimum amps draw. And anyway, it wouldn't be appropriate to go hareing along shared routes at that speed, or for that matter, on loose surfaced rural trails. As I mentioned, the cadence is quite comfortable now at 15 mph, but, the motor is still assisting strongly and therefore still pulling quite a few amps. I think I might be able to offset this by using the low assist setting.
The last thing I want to do is give anybody the impression the Panasonic is a complicated machine to ride, It isn't, just switch it on and forget it, in fact it requires less thought than a hub-motored machine.
Here's how I think you would find the Sahel:
If you fitted a 16T to the alfine hub, you would have a machine which performed almost exactly as your original 905se, without pressing any green buttons. Providing you fitted the 18 ah battery when available, the range per charge would also be comparable.
The next two parts of the thread are mostly enviro 'fluff', but the final instalment will provide more insight into the abilities of Sahel. Remember, my dear old Mum had to wait 9 months for me..................
Regards
Bob
As supplied, the assist had almost completely tapered off at 17 mph. This would be the road speed to aim at for the longest range per charge, as the motor would be pulling but a few amps at that speed. The problem was, I couldn't maintain the high cadence for any length of time. You may think the problem was solved by fitting the 16T to the hub, but it wasn't.
The Panasonic now stops assisting at 19mph, but the cadence at that speed is once again too fast, so I still can't pedal fast enough to keep the road-speed at the point of minimum amps draw. And anyway, it wouldn't be appropriate to go hareing along shared routes at that speed, or for that matter, on loose surfaced rural trails. As I mentioned, the cadence is quite comfortable now at 15 mph, but, the motor is still assisting strongly and therefore still pulling quite a few amps. I think I might be able to offset this by using the low assist setting.
The last thing I want to do is give anybody the impression the Panasonic is a complicated machine to ride, It isn't, just switch it on and forget it, in fact it requires less thought than a hub-motored machine.
Here's how I think you would find the Sahel:
If you fitted a 16T to the alfine hub, you would have a machine which performed almost exactly as your original 905se, without pressing any green buttons. Providing you fitted the 18 ah battery when available, the range per charge would also be comparable.
The next two parts of the thread are mostly enviro 'fluff', but the final instalment will provide more insight into the abilities of Sahel. Remember, my dear old Mum had to wait 9 months for me..................
Regards
Bob
Day two continued
The remaining landfill site on the East side of R45 has now been capped ready for planting. It will then be fenced off for three years to allow the trees to establish. Following this, foot and cycle paths will be laid the same as the West side on which I'm standing.
So, where do you source 16,500 cubic metres of clay with which to cap an old tip?. How about a small hill.
In the beginning, there was a hill, now there's a hole, and another lake already starting to fill.
We had to share R45 for a few weeks.
Dumptrucks to the left, bikes to the right. Once the barriers are down, R45 will be fully reinstated.
The bed of the new lake is the top layer of impermeable Oxford blue clay, eighty feet below that, the rock-head. This is also why the landfill site is here. Deep layers of clay effectively prevent the toxic leachate from the tip entering the water table. The constant seepage from the tips is collected in a large under-ground sump. then pumped up to the highest of 14 reed filter-beds.
Sahel resting by reed-bed one, by the time the leachate reaches the last bed, it will be clean enough to enter the River Ray at the bottom.
Time to mount-up and head for Lydiard Park.
To be continued...................
The remaining landfill site on the East side of R45 has now been capped ready for planting. It will then be fenced off for three years to allow the trees to establish. Following this, foot and cycle paths will be laid the same as the West side on which I'm standing.
So, where do you source 16,500 cubic metres of clay with which to cap an old tip?. How about a small hill.
In the beginning, there was a hill, now there's a hole, and another lake already starting to fill.
We had to share R45 for a few weeks.
Dumptrucks to the left, bikes to the right. Once the barriers are down, R45 will be fully reinstated.
The bed of the new lake is the top layer of impermeable Oxford blue clay, eighty feet below that, the rock-head. This is also why the landfill site is here. Deep layers of clay effectively prevent the toxic leachate from the tip entering the water table. The constant seepage from the tips is collected in a large under-ground sump. then pumped up to the highest of 14 reed filter-beds.
Sahel resting by reed-bed one, by the time the leachate reaches the last bed, it will be clean enough to enter the River Ray at the bottom.
Time to mount-up and head for Lydiard Park.
To be continued...................
Day two continued.......
The Kalkhoff Sahel Pro disc is listed as 'The athletic one' but it's equaly at home on smooth Tarmac.............
............Woodland trails.......
.......or muddy tracks, but with Marathon Plus Tours or similar fitted.
More to follow.........................
The Kalkhoff Sahel Pro disc is listed as 'The athletic one' but it's equaly at home on smooth Tarmac.............
............Woodland trails.......
.......or muddy tracks, but with Marathon Plus Tours or similar fitted.
More to follow.........................
Lydiard Park
Stump-jumping...............anyone?
Perhaps a bit of down-hill!
The assessment wouldn't be complete without testing the legendary climbing abilities of the Panasonic center-drive. The next day, I headed up to Blunsdon on the North side of Swindon.
To be continued...........................
Stump-jumping...............anyone?
Perhaps a bit of down-hill!
The assessment wouldn't be complete without testing the legendary climbing abilities of the Panasonic center-drive. The next day, I headed up to Blunsdon on the North side of Swindon.
To be continued...........................
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