Kalkhoff Endeavour BS10 400Wh

[Electrifying Cycles]

We're not talking about the Neo Cross and similar are we?

No Neo cross has been around a while and is legal. As I said I do not sell them but I do really like them and it is a bike we may stock in the future. There are some really nice bikes around at the 2k price point and at the moment but want to keep our range quite focused.

 

[Kudoscycles]

OK I take your point - but think a huge storm is being brewed in a tiny teacup to be honest. Just look at the Financial Services industry - most of what's sold every day has implications so obscurely disclosed even fully trained accountants cannot understand them - and even when things are spelt out in words of one syllable it will likely not change the S-Pedelec market more than a tiny fraction if at all.

There's a clear method of identifying legal versus non-registered eBikes already and to suggest that banning all eBikes is remotely likely as a sledgehammer to crack a tiny walnut of clearly non-registered eBikes is way off the mark. Suggesting that the eBike community must gang up and self-regulate against them on a hypothesis that this is needed to protect those who would likely love to ride an S-Pedelec illegally but for one reason or another have chosen not to cross that line (likely to protect their driving licences or stay out of Court if anything went wrong) is a bit off the mark, GaRRy.

You've got your ST4 - and you have a licence to ride it. So be happy and leave the poor folks who live in Cornwall and North Wales alone - many of them likely can't afford a fancy motorbike, have no bus services either and without a bit more oomph under their feet can't get around at all. And the only people they're likely to hurt are themselves - or maybe give a sheep a bit of a knock if one happens to get loose and stray into their path in a freak accident. Let things run their natural course. If any of the risks so often cited ever actually come about more than once in a blue moon we'll all soon hear about them. In all the years S-Pedelecs have been sold in the UK, you can count on one finger the number of times a reported incident has hit the public domain.

Trying to avoid prolonging this argument I must say that the financial services industry is retrospectively having massive and ongoing problems with misselling. These S class bikes are being deceiptfully missold,lets be honest they are largely not being used only on private land and they are not being registered,they are being used on the public highway and/or cycle tracks and the riders are turning a blind eye to the law. Has anyone ever seen a number plate adorning one of these bikes?
But taking your example of the financial services industry if there was a vendetta by the police to clear these illegal bikes or get them properly registered I would shout missold and want my money back from the retailer,just the same as the banks are being forced to compensate the ppi,interest rate swap and missold mortgage scams. The law now is that you must make clear to customers the implications of a purchase,you cannot hide it in the small print,I cannot see anything wrong with that.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

For the record, I bought a BS10 from 50 cycles last summer, great bike, fantastic performance and build quality. Absolutely from the moment I said I wanted to test ride a demonstrator it was made clear to me by their sales staff the implications of the higher power output and that this was classified as a light electric moped. However how I chose to use the bike once purchased was left to me as a informed adult to decide. Given the cost of a S class bike I find it hard to believe that anyone would purchase one without doing some basic research into pedelecs which would immediately as it did with me, highlight the implications of using one on public roads. From reading reading through the posts on this thread there does appear to be a wide seam of proffesional jealousy and childish petulant finger pointing, but hey, it makes entertaining reading!

Did you register it as a moped?
KudosDave

 

[103Alex1]

And what method would that be allowing for the fact quite a few people on here freely admit they use one and have never been stopped let alone told to stop using it ?. As for wide of mark I have seen it happen with other things so dont say it wouldnt. It would be far easier to ban all electric bikes than the hassle of working out which ones are legal.

Any way its not their use I am taking issue with rather the selling of them without making sure that people are aware they are not legal. Think of this if someone who is banned from driving was to buy one the consequences could involve a up to 2 year prison sentance.

The type approval certified on the frame states whether a bike is certified as compliant or not. It is perfectly clear on inspection and cross-reference !

They are perfectly legal, and can be used in areas where the public have access with a number plate (subject to the moped restrictions), which buyers are told about the need for and there is an attached plate for fixing it. You'd have to be pretty dense not to understand that you are buying a vehicle if you purchase an S-Pedelec !

Buying one would not lead to anything of the sort for anyone. It is down to the person riding it and the circumstances, just like it's down to the person driving a car and their circumstances at the time of any infraction. I seriously doubt a banned driver would purchase a vehicle and ride it without making him or herself aware of the risks attaching to their actions and taking a view as to whether they were willing to proceed. Of all the potential purchasers, that category of rider would likely do more than most to familiarize themselves with whether a licence was required or not.

 

[GaRRy]

No, that's the whole point - an S-Pedelec is a low powered moped and that's what people buying them want lol.

Again you are mixing arguments. Im not discussing whether they should be allowed but the fact that sellers are not disclosing all the facts to potential buyers.

 

[GaRRy]

They are perfectly legal, with a number plate, which buyers are told about the need for and there is an attached plate for fixing it. You'd have to be pretty dense not to understand that you are buying a vehicle if you purchase an S-Pedelec !

So how come as of end of 2012 not one kalkhoff has been registered with DVLA ?

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Be great to here of someone who has registered one. From experiences with DVLA what appears simple can sometimes be more complicated or at least long winded. I will let everyone know how the guy from BH Emotion gets on as we are considering s pedelecs in the future. I do not think this thread would have gone on if there was a couple of lines on the webpage where the bike is located stating the bike needs to be registered and perhaps a link to more information about what is required. Can not understand why adding that would be a problem, but perhaps I am missing something? Wise people spending that money should do the homework whether this is always the case is another matter.

 

[103Alex1]

Trying to avoid prolonging this argument I must say that the financial services industry is retrospectively having massive and ongoing problems with misselling. These S class bikes are being deceiptfully missold,lets be honest they are largely not being used only on private land and they are not being registered,they are being used on the public highway and/or cycle tracks and the riders are turning a blind eye to the law. Has anyone ever seen a number plate adorning one of these bikes?
But taking your example of the financial services industry if there was a vendetta by the police to clear these illegal bikes or get them properly registered I would shout missold and want my money back from the retailer,just the same as the banks are being forced to compensate the ppi,interest rate swap and missold mortgage scams. The law now is that you must make clear to customers the implications of a purchase,you cannot hide it in the small print,I cannot see anything wrong with that.
KudosDave

Fine, and have you tried buying one to see what 50Cycles tell their customers who actually do purchase one ?

They are not being deceiptfully missold by 50Cycles. Customers know exactly what they are buying. Attempting to draw out individual forum members about what they did or did not do about their bikes is futile. I suggest all S-Pedelec members take the 5th.

It sounds like you are trying to ginger up on some vendetta against non-250W bikes and this cannot be construed as being down to anything more than your own commercial interest and perhaps trying to court favour with a political agenda. There may be by some unscrupulous eBay sellers who do not inform buyers but as a customer of 50Cycles who has enquired about S-Pedelecs I can assure you that you are barking up completely the wrong tree.

You are doing nothing at the moment apart from turning me for one from a pretty supportive member with an open mind into one who has little interest in considering having any business dealing with you or recommending your company to potential purchasers.

So maybe time to find another dead horse to flog as I am certain it is not just myself who has become pretty disenamoured by the post you made earlier which has sparked a lot of these discussions.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The type approval certified on the frame states whether a bike is certified as compliant or not. It is perfectly clear on inspection and cross-reference !

They are perfectly legal, and can be used in areas where the public have access with a number plate (subject to the moped restrictions), which buyers are told about the need for and there is an attached plate for fixing it. You'd have to be pretty dense not to understand that you are buying a vehicle if you purchase an S-Pedelec !

Buying one would not lead to anything of the sort for anyone. It is down to the person riding it and the circumstances, just like it's down to the person driving a car and their circumstances at the time of any infraction. I seriously doubt a banned driver would purchase a vehicle and ride it without making him or herself aware of the risks attaching to their actions and taking a view as to whether they were willing to proceed. Of all the potential purchasers, that category of rider would likely do more than most to familiarize themselves with whether a licence was required or not.

But the minute you register it as a moped,you are not allowed access to promenades,bridle ways,dedicated cycle tracks etc. Maybe that doesn't bother you,but feedback from our recent roadshows would suggest that is one of the most enjoyable ways of using an ebike.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Lets go back to Cybercrimes original posting. Was he aware that this particular bike was an S-class bike and needed registration,crash hat etc.?
I just answered his posting.
If he was aware of that,fair enough.
KudosDave

 

[103Alex1]

So how come as of end of 2012 not one kalkhoff has been registered with DVLA ?

Rhetorical question isn't it ! It is not down to people not being told. They are electing not to.

Forget about trying to stop dealers by getting their customers prosecuted to indirectly attempt to damage their demand - that's cowardly and inappropriate. The perfectly easy way to close the loophole is to prohibit sale of LPM approved bikes (I forget the classification - was mentioned earlier by Tim) without prior dealer registration of the vehicle with DVLA (just like for cars) and require them to have fleet insurance. Do that and the insurance industry would step in to supply the product as there would be an identifiable market. Maybe make it easier for buyers to get insurance too - probably one of the main reasons why these bikes don't get registered in the 1st place.

Of course the outcome will simply be that customers who really want one to use without registering it will import their bikes direct from Europe, not register them, and all UK dealers will lose out. But at least the industry will have bashed one of their own currently selling the bikes to make sure they don't get any advantage. Especially after some personality clashes and "mine's better than yours" debates in the playground.

 

[103Alex1]

But the minute you register it as a moped,you are not allowed access to promenades,bridle ways,dedicated cycle tracks etc. Maybe that doesn't bother you,but feedback from our recent roadshows would suggest that is one of the most enjoyable ways of using an ebike.
KudosDave

For commuter biking, no. It wouldn't bother me at all. I use my "amnesty" Kalkhoff pretty much on road all the time anyway and only reluctantly go into cycle or bus lanes because drivers expect me to and because the speed is limited. On cycle tracks off road I use my other bike with no power on - as it's much more fun and an appropriate type of bike for those conditions.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

To be fair to Kudos Dave I think he was just raising the point if people including the original poster were aware of the legality of the bike they were buying it appears they do. But it is reasonable to expect something on their website letting people know they need to register their bike, no matter who the company is I would expect the same of Kudos, BH Emotion or any other company.

In fairness to Kudos and Dave they also do a lot to promote electric bikes e.g. Redbridge which we could all attend for free and I know a lot of us benefited from. I think all Dave was trying to do was raise awareness and make sure the original poster knew about the legality of the bike.

I do not feel there is a vendetta against 250watt bikes, as long as the individual is informed and either is prepared to take the risks or registers the bikes then there is no problem - in other words as long as there is transparency then the individual can decide for themselves! (Not everyone knows as much as pedelec members)

 

[103Alex1]

One could be forgiven for thinking otherwise with this, which was the sentence which set hares running :

Time I think to make the West London police and trading standards aware of these illegal bikes and get something done about it-my first job when I get to work today.
KudosDave

So - to protect us all from ourselves ? British Nanny State attitudes in spades - unless it happens to also suit competitors' aims to steer people in their own direction. Perhaps because if they are dissuaded from an S-Pedelec, the gap narrows between available 250W bikes and there's less more chance of customers turning their attention to the bewildering choice of the amnesty pond, where the astute salesman can move in on his prey.

I have been around salesmen all my life in one form or another - and in my experience they are often some of the nicest people around, albeit they can also be the most self-seeking and adopt all sorts of devious and creative strategies to steer people into their own nets.

Having criticized others for selling S-Pedelecs in the past with a disclosure loophole open, now to be faced with the opportunity of selling these oneself must create particular issues and to further have to be seen to be explicit in spelling out every downside of the legal requirements of selling those bikes must present particularly awkward conflicts. The natural response is to bang one's spoon on the table and demand that if you have to do it everyone must also do it - otherwise it is unfair.

It's a matter of opinion whether effectively disclosing a bike is a moped is sufficient to inform buyers there are further issues they need to consider. I for one happen to think it's sufficient for a normal person to be adequately informed. It is up to them to then investigate the implications for their particular circumstances. That's my humble opinion on the matter anyway.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Alex,

My opinion on this is just transparency how you do that is up to the company but with e-commerce I would definitely want some mention of the legality in case someone checked out without phoning up. If and when we sell them I would imagine a couple of sentences on the matter would be more than sufficient. That is my opinion other may have others opinions may differ but that is what we would do. We can get speed pedelecs but do not have them in stock currently.

I see no problem with people selling them as long as they are informed. I have never tried one but am sure they are good fun after all they have the Bosch system

 

[shemozzle999]

Alex,

My opinion on this is just transparency how you do that is up to the company but with e-commerce I would definitely want some mention of the legality in case someone checked out without phoning up. If and when we sell them I would imagine a couple of sentences on the matter would be more than sufficient. That is my opinion other may have others opinions may differ but that is what we would do. We can get speed pedelecs but do not have them in stock currently.

I see no problem with people selling them as long as they are informed. I have never tried one but am sure they are good fun after all they have the Bosch system

For information only - I have no beef with 50 cycles.

It seems Kalkhoff itself do not have a problem with transparency.

Kalkhoff : Good to know

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Useful link, in Germany they do benefit from a specific law around speed pedelecs would be great if the UK had the same. Would be better spending time pushing for this

 

[John Chandler]

But it is 50Cycles that are selling the non legal ones !!!!!. So they obvious feel thre is a need for them.

Of course there is a need, i would love one as it would just improve on what is already an excellent product... at the end of the day it is the buyers choice as long as one is aware of the obvious risks.

 

[Kenny]

I would guess that very few people, if any, who purchase a S- class bike don't realise that they do not meet the legal requirements of 15mph, 250w bikes.

I personally spent about a year looking at the various options before I parted with the best part of £2000 for my bike.

I think it highly unlikely anyone would splash out that kind of money without finding out a little bit about what they were buying.

I always ride with care and respect for pedestrians and other road users and enjoy the slight speed advantage my bike has and don't worry about the legal aspects

 

[SRS]

For a one off yes but if time after time its turns out that the accidents are involving non insured / taxed /registerd bikes you can bet that there will be discussions on non legal ebikes and how to stop them and the easiest solution (as with most things) is to ban them all legal or not. I really hope this never happens but I have seen it happen with other things so certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.

oh and tucking the word moped away in the detailed description of a bike is no way making it obvious.

Plenty on uninsured and illegal cars on the road but I don't see any signs that the authorities will penalise legal drivers.