Kalkhoff battery lights fault?

[JohnCade]

I've got an odd issue which has started with my Agattu Impulse battery. All the lights have started to stay on permanently. This is with the battery on or off the bike.

Last week the lights started to stay on after charging instead of all five going out when fully charged. This was the same when charging it on and off the bike. But they would turn off and stay off if the battery was put on the bike and the power was turned on. Then next day they would only turn off and stay off if the motor was activated, and now they will only turn off when the motor is activated as before, but they come back on when the system is turned off and stay on. Pressing the battery button does nothing.

I bought this bike from a fellow member here in July and he gave me a copy of the invoice with the original order number so it was covered by 50 Cycles warranty since they do allow the warranty to be transferred unlike some dealers. I contacted them and they sent me a new battery charger after I sent mine back, thinking it was faulty, but that hasn't fixed it. It doesn't seem to affect the way the battery operates or the handlebar battery indicator lights. But the only way to know if it's fully charged is to wait until the charger cools down, and you can't use the lights to check the battery condition. I also wonder if it's balancing as it should after charging since I assume it must be a BMS fault.

I only got the new charger on Friday so rode the bike and charged it today. I'll contact 50 Cycles again on Monday but meanwhile I wonder if anyone has any ideas why it would be doing this, or had anything similar happen? The Impulse battery charging operates in the same way as the Panasonic, and the lights should blink and then stay on one by one until they're all on and then all go out when fully charged.

 

[JohnCade]

Anyone had anything similar happen to their battery? Doesn't have to be a Kalkhoff one. On the face of it could be minor but it might indicate something major.

BTW it seems pretty quiet around here at the moment. Right now there are well over twice as many bots on the site as members.....

 

[jackhandy]

.

BTW it seems pretty quiet around here at the moment. Right now there are well over twice as many bots on the site as members.....

I'd noticed the drop in posts recently.
Several people have been complaining they don't like the direction the forum's going, but no-one seems to be taking up the slack & posting any alternatives

 

[Blew it]

Anyone had anything similar happen to their battery? Doesn't have to be a Kalkhoff one. On the face of it could be minor but it might indicate something major.

The best part of four years ago I purchased a 26v 18ah BMZ battery for my Panasonic powered Kalkhoff Sahel. The battery developed exactly the same fault that you describe after a week or so. Similar reports on the German Pedelecs forum suggested this was not uncommon for the BMZ battery.

50 Cycles replaced the battery under the warranty. The replacement battery has proved faultless and, still reports full capacity.

 

[JohnCade]

I'd noticed the drop in posts recently.
Several people have been complaining they don't like the direction the forum's going, but no-one seems to be taking up the slack & posting any alternatives

Yes a couple of people have posted along those lines but I don't know if it has put anyone here off or if it's just a seasonal slowdown in interest. The off road thread was very active for a while but isn't now for instance, and not too many members are using their massively powered pedalless bikes on the mud. d8veh seems to have stopped posting but so have others who liked to pedal their totally legal bikes, and maybe he's stopped because 10,000 is a nice round number.....

 

[JohnCade]

The best part of four years ago I purchased a 26v 18ah BMZ battery for my Panasonic powered Kalkhoff Sahel. The battery developed exactly the same fault that you describe after a week or so. Similar reports on the German Pedelecs forum suggested this was not uncommon for the BMZ battery.

50 Cycles replaced the battery under the warranty. The replacement battery has proved faultless and, still reports full capacity.

Thanks Blew it. If it's a known fault then I assume they will do the same. Did they say if it was likely to cause any issues other than inconvenience?

Someone here posted once about a British Kalkhoff forum but I've never found one. In fact searches for Kalkhoff alway come back to this forum or 50 Cycles. I've hardly seen any mentions anywhere else.

 

[Blew it]

....did they say if it was likely to cause any issues other than inconvenience?

I cannot recall being given any explanation for the fault. What I do remember is, the self discharge rate was much faster as a result of the led's being constantly lit. It took a few days to organise the return of the battery, It was already down to two led's solid and the third flashing when I parcelled it up ready for despatch.

Personally, I would be inclined to send the battery back at the first opportunity. There is no way of knowing how the fault might affect its ultimate longevity.

 

[JohnCade]

My battery lights are doing exactly the same after riding with some lights on and the next one up flashing. Like charging in reverse. I'm surprised the leds would drain it though, I didn't think they took any power to speak of.

I'll get back to 50 Cycles pronto though. Thanks for your info.

 

[rsyme]

I have a Kalkhoff Impulse ergo and the battery is 6 months old -- from about 6 weeks ago it is now showing reducing capacity almost every time it is charged -- gone from 160Kms available on Eco Mode to 140 to 130 to 120 and now 108. My dealer is now sending it bck for replacement so I reckon there are a few issues with these batteries which I gather are made in Poland!
Cheers
Robbie

 

[JohnCade]

Not sure how that works really. I wonder how accurate it is? I suppose there will always be some duff batteries though. I had a bad one with my last bike too - not a Kalkhoff - and that was supposed to have been very unusual.

I rang 50 Cycles and they have to get some sort of okay from Kalkhoff it seems. So I'll see how long it takes for them to get back to me.

 

[tillson]

they have to get some sort of okay from Kalkhoff it seems.

The battery has developed a fault within the warranty period. That's all there is to it. They should know what to do and they should do it quickly.

 

[FinstP]

I've just joined and I posted my problem along with my introduction to the forum, so probably a mistake. However I have now found this old thread describing the same thing that has happened to me - outside the warranty period. My battery is three years old, but has only been used sparingly and has only ever been recharged about 8-10 times as I have other bikes. I was still able to use the bike when this first happened and even recharged it once without any issue (other than all the lights staying on). However after some time without use, the battery was drained to very low levels, measuring just 9.4v on a good voltmeter. Since my introductory post a few days ago I have dismantled the battery (with all due care) and confirmed that each of the 10 series connected packs were reading 0.94 v. It seems pretty obvious that the original fault lies with the battery management system inside the battery, made by BMZ. So - to repeat my original query, does anyone know where a replacement BMS unit can be purchased? Secondly, to any Li-ion battery experts out there, is there any chance of the batteries having survived to live another day?

 

[soundwave]

if you drain a cell past 2.5v then they are knackered.

https://bmsbattery.com/82-lipo

or this place should be able to recell the the batt with new ones and a new bms

http://www.bga-reworking.co.uk/insat-li-nmc-ebike-battery-10ah-24v-36v-48v.html

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I've just joined and I posted my problem along with my introduction to the forum, so probably a mistake. However I have now found this old thread describing the same thing that has happened to me - outside the warranty period. My battery is three years old, but has only been used sparingly and has only ever been recharged about 8-10 times as I have other bikes. I was still able to use the bike when this first happened and even recharged it once without any issue (other than all the lights staying on). However after some time without use, the battery was drained to very low levels, measuring just 9.4v on a good voltmeter. Since my introductory post a few days ago I have dismantled the battery (with all due care) and confirmed that each of the 10 series connected packs were reading 0.94 v. It seems pretty obvious that the original fault lies with the battery management system inside the battery, made by BMZ. So - to repeat my original query, does anyone know where a replacement BMS unit can be purchased? Secondly, to any Li-ion battery experts out there, is there any chance of the batteries having survived to live another day?

There's a fair chance that you don't need a BMZ BMS. You could try one of these at only £8:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Battery-Protection-BMS-PCB-Board-For-10-Packs-36V-Li-ion-Cell-Max-40A-W-Balance/32682462334.html?spm=2114.13010608.0.0.OMTCB1

You might be able to get your cells up again, but they'll have lost a lot of their capacity and might be a bit saggy.

You need to get the cells up above 3v before any BMS will allow charging. It doesn't take much charge to do that. You can use any 5v USB or phone charger. Attach it to each cell string in turn until they get to 3v. It'll probably take about a minute foe each one. For the first charge with the charger, take precautions against the very small chance of fire.

 

[FinstP]

Thanks for the reply Soundwave, I have looked at the data sheet for the NCR18650b cells that are in these Kalkhoff batteries and have tried to read up a bit on Li-ion in general. The data sheet does show end of capacity is reached at 2.5v, and there are general warnings on the internet about decreased cycle life if a deep discharge state is reached, but I can't find any actual information on what happens if the cell goes below 2.5v. I'm assuming that the faulty BMS put a small load on the battery, sufficient to take the cells below the level at which the drain would normally have been stopped, but WHY is the battery 'knackered'? Can the cells be recharged at all? If so, will they self-discharge, burst into flames, or what?

Dinner and some experimentation intervened before I got round to posting the above - and I've just seen the reply from d8veh! Thanks for that, in fact I have just started to answer my own question above, in line with what you suggested. The cells have rapidly gone back to 3v with the BMS disconnected and I will try to put the battery back on charge when I get the cheap BMS that I ordered yesterday (just in case it would work as you also suggested).

 

[soundwave]

you might get them all charging again but will not be as good and sag like d8 says.

how long they last i guess we will find out soon

 

[FinstP]

Soundwave, fingers crossed!
Does anyone know if the handlebar controller is likely to work with a replacement BMS? Can I simulate/override the extra three connections on the Kalkhoff battery?

 

[IR772]

"Do not boost lithium-based batteries back to life that have dwelled below 1.5V/cell for a week or longer. Copper shunts may have formed inside the cells that can lead to a partial or total electrical short. When recharging, such a cell might become unstable, causing excessive heat or show other anomalies."

 

[Mark_Kalkhoff]

I've just joined and I posted my problem along with my introduction to the forum, so probably a mistake. However I have now found this old thread describing the same thing that has happened to me - outside the warranty period. My battery is three years old, but has only been used sparingly and has only ever been recharged about 8-10 times as I have other bikes. I was still able to use the bike when this first happened and even recharged it once without any issue (other than all the lights staying on). However after some time without use, the battery was drained to very low levels, measuring just 9.4v on a good voltmeter. Since my introductory post a few days ago I have dismantled the battery (with all due care) and confirmed that each of the 10 series connected packs were reading 0.94 v. It seems pretty obvious that the original fault lies with the battery management system inside the battery, made by BMZ. So - to repeat my original query, does anyone know where a replacement BMS unit can be purchased? Secondly, to any Li-ion battery experts out there, is there any chance of the batteries having survived to live another day?

very late but ive only joined this recently after getting a kalkhoff pro connect, ive spoken to BMZ this morning and this battery management system will work at this link
https://bmsbattery.com/bmspcm/330-smart-bms-513-cells-in-series-bms-pcm.html#/212-discharge_current-20_40a
hope this may help for the future if you have it sorted now