Jeremy Clarkson :- hub or crank

[Gubbins]

I don't always have time to read through all the posts but in those I do I find that certain topics seem to keep surfacing and will not go away. One such topic is the hub or crank which is best argument. What's this to do with J. C you may ask? Well, I like J. C but when watching him on tv I knew I didn't want to end up looking him, in other words I do not want to become a fat old man (no offense to the calorifically challenged).
My weight goes up in the winter no matter how hard I try and the biking helps bring it down in the summer.. The crank drive makes me work as it won't go on its own whereas a hub drive would appeal to my age related laziness and would carry me along the ever lengthening road to a 40 inch waist.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's nothing to do with the type of motor. It's the control system that makes a difference. There's lots of hub-motors that you have to pedal hard - if that's what you want - and crank motors that are easy to pedal, like Tonaro and Bafang or GNG kits.

 

[halfer]

Each technology has its advantages, so there's not a "right" answer. Furthermore, a cheap quality example of one cannot be compared to an expensive example of the other, so make sure you compare like with like.

Personally I thought the technology was swinging towards crank drives, with the great work Panasonic and Bosch have done in this area, but several times the view has been expressed here that hub drives are getting much better. They will not suffer from chain stretch, though I wonder whether their optimum speeds will have to be widened (and so I'd expect mean efficiency to drop).

I rather like crank drives as it means wheels can be easily replaced with ordinary bike wheels. But if I rode a hub drive and preferred the handling characteristics to everything else I'd tried, I'd buy it.

 

[Gubbins]

I suppose I am a bit naive having only seen 3 hub drive bikes, 2 of which went sailing past me at about 20 miles an hour with the riders not peddling! I tried to catch one of them but I can only propel mine at that speed for a few minutes so failed there.. One can only presume that these are not legal, being the hub equivalent of a dongled crank!

 

[trex]

crank: quiet, efficient, light, nice weight distribution, good handling, easy maintenance and fast.
hub: noisy, inefficient, wrong weight distribution, poor handling, broken spokes and slow.

 

[D8ve]

Trex you are going to be told of by D8veh.
Even if I almost agree with you.
But they are both good.
If a bike goes at 20 without peddling then it is illegal.
Both crank and hubs can be fixed to do this.
My preference is crank drive as well.
But if you wanted 20+ mph without pedalling then there are plenty mopeds around.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

crank: quiet, efficient, light, nice weight distribution, good handling, easy maintenance and fast.
hub: noisy, inefficient, wrong weight distribution, poor handling, broken spokes and slow.

Of course I'm going to tell him off. Trex, you're a very naughty boy! You've presented a very unbalanced view. Please think about the people that read what you write, some of them don't have enough experience or knowledge to realise that.

The balance and handling of a bike has little to do with the type of motor, neither has the noise. Have you tried a direct drive motor? Some of them are virtually silent.

It looks to me like you've compared your favourite crank-drive bike with a poorly designed hub-motored bike and then stated the comparison as if every bike with the same genre of motor is the same. You can only compare individual bikes meaningfully. There are some facts that you can state about the main differences, but you missed them.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

crank: quiet, efficient, light, nice weight distribution, good handling, easy maintenance and fast.
hub: noisy, inefficient, wrong weight distribution, poor handling, broken spokes and slow.

you my friend are an idiot and posts like this just prove someone should remove your access to this forum.

 

[trex]

what's wrong with expressing my personal views?
and I am not idiot enough to insult other members, that may get you banned.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

what's wrong with expressing my personal views?

whats wrong is that you're wrong!!!.

and I am not idiot enough to insult other members, that may get you banned.

its not an insult, I'm sorry to say it appears to be a fact.

Your posts which are you opinion are mostly wrong, which indicates you don't know what you're talking about.

An intelligent person can express their opinion and understand that their opinion should not be expressed as fact, especially when making sweeping statements about whole categories of bikes which are simply not possible to make.

 

[flecc]

crank: quiet, efficient, light, nice weight distribution, good handling, easy maintenance and fast.
hub: noisy, inefficient, wrong weight distribution, poor handling, broken spokes and slow.

While Trex's view can be criticicised on many aspects, there are many truths contained with it. e.g:

The better crank units are quieter throughout their working range than geared hubs throughout theirs. Only direct drives compete well on this aspect, but they lose out on steep hill climbing compared to crank drive.

The best crank units can have higher efficiency, true especially of the second series Panasonic units.

The low central weight distribution of the better crank unit bikes is better than that of very many hub motor models, many of which are quite poor in this respect.

Broken spokes have been much more likely on hub motor wheels.

Some of the better crank units are "sealed-for-life" types, so the overall e-bike maintenance on them is self-evidently easier.

And crank drives being potentially faster is also true, since it often involves a simple sprocket change or tweak. To increase assist speed on a hub motor usually means great expense by using a higher voltage battery.

That only leaves handling as a fully arguable issue, so to make the sweeping statement that he is an idiot is quite wrong in this discussion context.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

see, thats how an opinion should be expressed Thanks Flecc, but the clear difference is your use of "the best", "the better" "more likely" and "potentially" which are the crucial things that Trex missed out.

While Trex's view can be criticicised on many aspects, there are many truths contained with it. e.g:

The better crank units are quieter throughout their working range than geared hubs throughout theirs. Only direct drives compete well on this aspect, but they lose out on steep hill climbing compared to crank drive.
.

True, but a good hub drive can be better than a bad crank drive.

The best crank units can have higher efficiency, true especially of the second series Panasonic units.

also true, but a bad crank units can be not as efficient as a good hub drive.

The low central weight distribution of the better crank unit bikes is better than that of very many hub motor models, many of which are quite poor in this respect.

Again true, but you can have a crank drive with a Nexus hub, and really bad spokes and rims / tyres, which will have just as bad weight distribution. So again its not possible to make a sweeping statement.

Broken spokes have been much more likely on hub motor wheels.
.

broken spokes seem to have been a problem, due to the wheel build and quality of spoke used. You can break spokes on a crank driven bike if you use low quality components and build them badly just as easily.

Some of the better crank units are "sealed-for-life" types, so the overall e-bike maintenance on them is self-evidently easier.

True, but a hub drive is also a sealed for life unit, so the maintenance is actually just as easy really.

And crank drives being potentially faster is also true, since it often involves a simple sprocket change or tweak. To increase assist speed on a hub motor usually means great expense by using a higher voltage battery.

he didn't say "potentially" faster. He said "faster" some of our hub drive bikes are faster than some of our crank drive bikes

That only leaves handling as a fully arguable issue, so to make the sweeping statement that he is an idiot is quite wrong in this discussion context.
.

Being an idiot, wasn't a sweeping statement. It was a clear point that I can back up. I didn't say everyone from his town is an idiot, or everyone with his name is an idiot. That would have been a sweeping statement

 

[flecc]

But you are dismissing likelyhoods. I was posting on that basis and stand by what I posted in that respect. Internally geared hub motors are not sealed for life, their internal gears do wear out and replacements are available. It's also not uncommon for them to need internal greasing.
.

 

[EddiePJ]

Flecc you also forgot to mention that countless Bosch crank drive motors have to be pulled apart to be greased because of poor assembly procedure.

Trex should had started with 'in my opinion' then detailed his reasons. He didn't do either.

His views certainly don't correspond with my experience of both units, and I'll share my own personal thoughts and experience of both later when I can grab more time.

 

[flecc]

Flecc you also forgot to mention that countless Bosch crank drive motors have to be pulled apart to be greased because of poor assembly procedure.

Trex should had started with 'in my opinion' then detailed his reasons. He didn't do either.

His views certainly don't correspond with my experience of both units, and I'll share my own personal thoughts and experience of both later when I can grab more time.

But as I made clear to KTM, I'm speaking of likelyhoods across all examples, not just selected ones or an experience of just one of each.

I did preface my post by saying there are many truths in what Trex posted and I've demonstrated that to be the case. The likelyhoods across the whole market and over time are exactly as I stated.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The answer is there are good crank drive bikes, and good hub drive bikes. There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems. Which is the reason why many brands (us included) do both.

Equally there are some shocking hub drive bikes. It's true that there are less bad crank drives. But that's because of the costs of making a crank drive are beyond many small companies.

Trex just needs to understand that his opinion isn't fact and learn to express it as such.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

While Trex's view can be criticicised on many aspects, there are many truths contained with it. e.g:

The better crank units are quieter throughout their working range than geared hubs throughout theirs. Only direct drives compete well on this aspect, but they lose out on steep hill climbing compared to crank drive.

The best crank units can have higher efficiency, true especially of the second series Panasonic units.

The low central weight distribution of the better crank unit bikes is better than that of very many hub motor models, many of which are quite poor in this respect.

Broken spokes have been much more likely on hub motor wheels.

Some of the better crank units are "sealed-for-life" types, so the overall e-bike maintenance on them is self-evidently easier.

And crank drives being potentially faster is also true, since it often involves a simple sprocket change or tweak. To increase assist speed on a hub motor usually means great expense by using a higher voltage battery.

That only leaves handling as a fully arguable issue, so to make the sweeping statement that he is an idiot is quite wrong in this discussion context.
.

I'm afraid I have to take issue with this too. Hub-motors don't lose out on hill-climbing. It simply depends on what motor you're talking about.

Show me some facts that say that crank-drives are more efficient than hub-motors, and I'll show you some that say they don't. Can you name a single crank motor with an efficiency of over 85%. There's hub-motors that go over 90%. As far as I can see and measure, the idea of a crank-motor being more efficient is a fallacy.

IMHO, you get the best balance and handling of an electric bike with a rear hub-motor and battery mounted on the down-tube or thereabouts. How many bikes have you ridden like that?

It's true that there's been more reports of broken spokes on hub-motors, but you're not comparing like with like regarding cost and quality. How many reports of broken spokes have there been on Bionx, TransX, Swiss Drive and Panasonic hub-motors? As far as I can remember, less than for bikes with Panasonic crank motor. Of course there'll be a difference between hand-built German bikes and Chinese bikes made in second-rate factories with little quality control.

Crank-motors have a greater speed range is true, but you trade torque for speed as you change up through the gears. You can't have both. A hub-motor can go at any speed. It depends on the windings and voltage. You can still have high speed at low voltage. The Q100 can do 328 rpm at 24v. Another version does 201 rpm at 48v.

Crank motors might be sealed for life, but so are hub-motors. I've never seen a service sheet for any hub-motored bike that says that you should open a hub-motor to do any servicing.

It looks like I disagree on every single point. Sorry.

 

[trex]

I am comparing the Bafang SWX against the BBS01 15A 250W / Bosch Active and the Bafang BPM 350W against the Bafang BBS01 18A 350W. They are about the most popular choices.
My opinon:
crank: quiet, efficient, light, nice weight distribution, good handling, easy maintenance and fast.
hub: noisy, inefficient, wrong weight distribution, poor handling, broken spokes and slow.

 

[flecc]

.

It looks like I disagree on every single point. Sorry.

But you are disagreeing on something different from what I posted, so I repeat my last answer that I posted on overall likelyhoods across the market and over time.

And some of what you posted is clearly wrong. Hub motors are not sealed for life when manufacturers make available internal spares like gears. On gears replacement, clearly my experience in this respect is longer than yours, and the common incidence of this need is not from decades ago. I didn't say that hub motors lose out on hill climbing against crank motor bikes, I said direct drive motors lose out on steep hill climbing, and that across all examples is true.

I never made any statements on cost or quality, nor any on torque relative to speed increase since that is self evident. You also pick an example of e-bike layout in respect of handling, but since I gave no support to Trex on that point but posted that the issue of handling is arguable, you have not disagreed with me on that, you've agreed.

What I did say is that some criticisms could be levelled at what Trex posted but there are many truths in it also. I have not said all was true or denied that there are examples where he is wrong.
.

 

[Beardedave]

My current crank drive bike is much heavier than the first Hub drive ebike I rode. The reason being the Tonaro is a solid MTB and the Juicy bike was a little commuter thing with 20in wheels.
Generally, I'd say try to avoid generalisations.