Is there a bike that meets my requirements?

[danfoto]

Apart from some of the Gazelle models, is there an ebike which has ...

Step-through frame
Upright riding position
Crank motor of not less than 70Nm torque
Shimano hub gears
Disc brakes
Either belt drive or full chaincase
Rear carrier rated not less than 20Kg
Side stand

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I don't think a legal hub drive exists for my uses, if there was, I'd buy one: towing heavy bike trailers up steep hills. 80nm at the crank is barely enough, and I'm not frail nor weak. When I don't need high torque, I need speed for commuting - a mid-drive for me is the ideal and legal all rounder. A complete motor unit with controller is less than £400, which is an acceptable cost (not that purchasing a complete new motor would be necessary, many Bafang BBSXX(X) spares are available) every few years.

Towing heavy trailers is not common use I would say for bicycles. 80Nm is not 250W output. Even so called legal Bosch motors are well over 700W to create their maximum torque they quote. Mid-drives have the greatest range of power requirements and are a real stress test for batteries. However in the context of this thread where some mid-drive motors are around 40-50Nm and with mid-drive having perhaps 2-3Nm power loss through the chain and often a higher tooth chainring compared to the maximum size cassette cog i.e. 42 at the front and 32 at the rear many of these mid-drive ebikes are considerably less powerful than hub motors up hills.

50Nm goes to 47Nm and then 47x(32/42)=35.80Nm which is easily beatable by a hub motor up hills. So mid-drive motors often seem pointless with standard hub gears as the one advantage they have more torque often doesn't apply here as the mid-drive motor is in reduced performance mode to protect the hub gears but they will still wear excessively fast perhaps up to 6x faster than a combination of front hub motor and rear hub gears.

It's not all about torque though as some powerful mid-drive motors would not manage to go up a long steep hill as thermal protection would kick in and reduce power. Some mid-drive motors only allow seconds for maximum torque, ideal for off-road short spurts of power but not tackling a long steep hill on the road. Direct drive motors while lower torque can often start and finish long steep hills with the same maximum torque they have because they have more surface area to release their heat and have no internal gearing to create friction. You can use internal cooling liquid like stator-aid/ferrofluid to improve cooling even more which can only be used on direct drive hub motors. Again normally you wouldn't compare a direct drive hub motor with mid-drive for hill climbing but here where many mid-drive motors have restricted torque output to protect the hub gears suddenly hub motors overall can be much more favourable and competitive overall.

If you put the same 700W output approx in a hub motor to a mid-drive motor the hill climbing would be just as good overall. A typical 250W hub motor perhaps only peaks at 60% over nominal wattage. I.e. a 36V at 7A controller may peak at 11A for very short periods but generally maintains much closer to 250W than mid-drive where as a Bosch motor may peak around 24A at 36V and sustain 20A output for a much longer period. 20" wheels often allow fantastic torque with hub motors as the torque is amplified compared to larger wheels but maximum speed reduced. Etrto 406 compared to 559,584 and 622 is approximately 2/3rds the circumference so a 50% torque boost basically, 40Nm becomes 60Nm or 60 becomes 90Nm. You also can have windings optimised for torque rather than speed or a larger reduction ratio which are other elements to final torque. There is no magic to mid-drive we just a situation where their high wattage is often overlooked perhaps because the legislation favoured European manufacturers. It isn't a level playing field the legislation bans normal ebikes as used in the rest of the world, throttle based and higher power hub motors.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I didn't say it was.



Peak power isn't sustained power, doesn't equate to the rating quoted by the manufacturer. Besides, I don't have a Bosch (which I hate with a passion, because of their knackerware which is specifically designed to thwart repair by users).



My battery is capable of 25A continuous, and my controller draws 15A... it's not stressed.



You've quoted me, created another context so stick to the point: my mid-drive produces 80NM at the crank = (by your estimation) ...



= 77NM after losses. Which no legal hub drive can produce.



Who in their right mind would use that uphill?



Mine doesn't.

This website is throwing a major wobbly, I may pick this arse covering exercise of yours later. No legal hub drive is capable of what I need it to do. Unless I went 48V and amped up... which might stand a chance for the hill towing climbing ability I need, but then might stumble on speed needed when not towing ie commuting. Either way, I'm not willing to take the risk unless absolutely certain - the tradeoffs of a mid-drive are accpetable to me. You can do as you wish.

The point is you state 'no legal hub motor' will suit you but you have chosen a illegal mid-drive motor from the sound of it. Why must a hub motor be legal but a mid-drive not?

No need to be abusive, while I answered some of your points I also made points related to the thread in general. Many of these shop bought ebikes do have limited low gearing this again protects the hub gears because it limits the torque applied to the Nexus which in combination with the reduced power mid-drive motor helps to extend their life although still nowhere near that of a Nexus fitted to a standard bicycle. However by reducing the low gearing you compromise hill climbing ability which is why many people are disappointed. There was a thread on this forum where someone was bitterly disappointed with their Bosch mid-drive ebike for hill climbing that was fitted with a Nexus 7. I can't be bothered searching for it but it was a few months ago.

 

[danfoto]

As the OP, permit me to just say that I have now been riding mid-motor ebikes with Nexus hub gears day in day out as my only form of transport for 11 years. They suit both me and the wife, whose 70Nm Yamaha-motor 8-speed Nexus-equipped Batavus shows no sign at all of any wearing-out after three years' daily use in hilly terrain, more often than not with loads of > 20Kg on the back. Neither of us have any interest whatsoever in bikes that are not genuinely EPAC-compliant.

Thanks for the bike suggestions, folks.

 

[guerney]

The point is you state 'no legal hub motor' will suit you but you have chosen a illegal mid-drive motor from the sound of it. Why must a hub motor be legal but a mid-drive not?

No need to be abusive, while I answered some of your points I also made points related to the thread in general. Many of these shop bought ebikes do have limited low gearing this again protects the hub gears because it limits the torque applied to the Nexus which in combination with the reduced power mid-drive motor helps to extend their life although still nowhere near that of a Nexus fitted to a standard bicycle. However by reducing the low gearing you compromise hill climbing ability which is why many people are disappointed. There was a thread on this forum where someone was bitterly disappointed with their Bosch mid-drive ebike for hill climbing that was fitted with a Nexus 7. I can't be bothered searching for it but it was a few months ago.

I apologise if I came across as abusive Mr.Banana, or Bonzo. Before you start going on and on about how awful and unsuitable mid-drives are compared to hub drives, why not ask how heavy the OP is first? A hub, not a legal one at least, can suit every type of application. And my bike is UK legal, thank you.

Would you have a stroke looking at the innards of a Swiss watch? Brace yourself, they contain many moving parts. You don't even have a mid-drive.

 

[guerney]

@Bonzo Banana - I must say that I do enjoy reading all of the detail in your posts. I apologise if I offended you in any way. That really wasn't my intention.

 

[soundwave]

I apologise if I came across as abusive Mr.Banana, or Bonzo. Before you start going on and on about how awful and unsuitable mid-drives are compared to hub drives, why not ask how heavy the OP is first? A hub, not a legal one at least, can suit every type of application. And my bike is UK legal, thank you.

Would you have a stroke looking at the innards of a Swiss watch? Brace yourself, they contain many moving parts. You don't even have a mid-drive.

it is not road legal the very fact that you can change the settings in the controller means it can never be road legal even at 100w.

if i remove my dongle there is no way at all in to the controllers settings to change anything not even the wheel size because it is a locked down system.

now if i ripped out the controller and replaced it with one i could programme it would make the bike non road legal it is as simple as that.

 

[guerney]

it is not road legal the very fact that you can change the settings in the controller means it can never be road legal even at 100w.

if i remove my dongle there is no way at all in to the controllers settings to change anything not even the wheel size because it is a locked down system.

now if i ripped out the controller and replaced it with one i could programme it would make the bike non road legal it is as simple as that.

I'm glad you're not a judge.

 

[soundwave]

that's just the way the law is if you want to brake it then you best know what you are braking in the first place but if it was enforced then no more fast food riders lol.

m8 has had his 1000w bafang on the road for 2 years now with max everything and a throttle and not been stopped once and rides to work on it every day.

 

[guerney]

m8 has had his 1000w bafang on the road for 2 years now with max everything and a throttle and not been stopped once and rides to work on it every day.

No firing squad or anything. It really is quite depressing. Ribs totalled for a bit, hope he fully recovered.

 

[soundwave]

that was another guy he had a hub motor, and my temp filling just fell of again ffs

 

[AndyBike]

Thanks for the bike suggestions, folks.

I suggest you also join the EMTB forum, where you will find people less biased against mid drive motors.

 

[egroover]

My Bafang 80Nm 36v 250w bbs01 15a limited mid drive pisses all over my carrera Crossfire-e Suntour HESC 50Nm rear hub drive climbing hills. No contest
Just saying

 

[guerney]

that was another guy he had a hub motor, and my temp filling just fell of again ffs

Sadism keeps dentists not committing suicide cheerful

 

[Raboa]

I have both a rear hub and mid drive (BBS02), I find the hub motor nicer to ride and good for carrying small loads. If I am going to the scrap yard or carrying a lot of shopping I prefer the mid drive as the weight is more balanced and eventually disrupted on the bike.
I would recommend the Tortec expedition bike rack, my record is 70 double plug sockets for scrapping.