Is Kalkhoff losing brand quality in pursuit of development?

[oriteroom]

At the risk of being a neanderthal or luddite........

With battery problems and now motor problems I start to believe Kalkhoff have taken their eye of the ball, with the latest breeds poorer that the original panasonic powered units. Having supposedly "upgraded" (i use the term reservedly) my wife's original 2008 Pro Connect to a Tasman, I follow with trepidation the unravelling stories on here of the newer Impulse generation of bikes. Development for its own sake or in pursuit of not needed torque or greater range seems to be at the expense of reliability. I don't believe the developments are in response to customer's needs or demands.

I cannot keep her off her old bike, which still sings along and:
1. the battery goes to sleep on the bike in the winter and loses little of it's charge,
2. the motor has been faultless for 12,000 miles+, it has all the torque she wants to handle,
3. the 10 amp battery lasts her between 150 and 200 miles given the way we cycle with assistance mainly for hills and wind, and occasionally tired legs at the end of 30 to 40 mile rides.
4. The battery is 7 years old, been recharged just over 150 times, still takes the full 10 amp/hr from exhausted to full charge, and shows 5 lights on the cell test. Generally recharge at the 3 or 4 lights on stage depending upon time interval or next ride distance.

I'm having to persuade her to use the new Tasman, just so that any faults show up within the warranty period. Even then round trips in excess of 400+ miles to get anything sorted, is not something I've had to deal with in the past 7 years withe the Panasonics.

Thus, I firmly believe the build quality on the earliest Kalkhoffs was significantly better, Kalkhoff are guilty of development for it's own sake. Also the paint jobs on the earlier bikes were so much more attractive.

It will a long time I suspect that I will even consider "upgrading" my ProConnect 2008, or my ProConnect S 2010, and certainly not before I am reassured that battery/motor issues are resolved. Having tried her new Tasman, I begin to think a better upgrade for me would be to find, a good, low mileage, well cared for panasonic powered ProConnect S.

 

[JohnCade]

I’m not sure that there are any motor problems really. Some people seem to be hearing noises but that has turned out to be loose cranks and the like usually. There was an issue with some batteries last year and I had one which failed after a year. But then I had a duff battery with my first Chinese bike within the first two weeks. The Kalkhoff battery was changed under warrenty and it sleeps after just over a week unused as it should.

I think it’s more that some people are posting here with odd little issues before they get back to the dealer; and when they do it usually turns out to be a false alarm. The bikes are expensive and perhaps people expect perfection as a result. Although other makes are even more pricey. Also there were real problems with Bosch motors last year as I recall, and I don’t remember hearing about any Impulse units having none reparable main bearings which failed needing new motors after little more than a year.

 

[oriteroom]

On batteries, I'm concerned that they are instances of them losing charge whilst in sleep mode on the bike, and I'm starting to think our new Tasman may be doing the same. It sleeps more than normal of course, because the older ProConnect is still the 'preferred' ride

 

[nemesis]

i also thought that the new kalkhoffs were not the same as the older panasonic powered models until i bought one with the latest impulse 2 speed motor,now covered 2000 km with no issues and the performance is outstanding with incredible climbing power and also it is very good at holding high speed but most of all the range with the 17ah battery is 76km in high power mode,the new kalkhoff integrale for 2016 is going to be my next bike.

 

[tillson]

My impression is that the build quality of Kalkhoff bikes remains the same as it's always been, which is very good. Where I think they have gone astray is with regard to the motor. Panasonic have a lot of experience producing Ebike motors going back a number of years, and that experience is evident in their reliability and the fact that the motor is able to integrate with different gear systems. I believe that Kalkhoff bikes as a whole are poorer since Panasonic were dropped as a supplier.

Like oriteroom, I prefer the older bikes. For me, the Pro Connect Disc with Alfine 8 speed hub gears would just about fulfil all my criteria for an Ebike. Super Panasonic reliability, ride and forget gears, low maintenance brakes, good range and a tough paint job. Why would you want anything else?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

There were a lot of problems reported with the Panasonic motor, where the chain jumps on the drive sprocket. That doesn't happen on the Ipulse motor. There was also that disaster when they tried 24 spoke wheels.

With the impulse motor, the main cock-up as far as I can see is when they forgot to put axle adjusters/restrainers on the hub-geared bikes.

So, there have been a few problems over the years, but nothing too disastrous., though I guess anybody would be a bit annoyed if they experienced any of them.

 

[soundwave]

There was also that disaster when they tried 24 spoke wheels.

were they like mine ?

 

[oriteroom]

24 spoke wheels weren't all disastrous. My 2008 ProConnect has 9,000 miles on the clock, and is a 24 spoker. My ProConnect S (2010),also just over 9,000 miles on the clock, is a full spoke wheel, but this one has signs of corrosion bubbling up under the paint on the rims.

 

[JohnCade]

My impression is that the build quality of Kalkhoff bikes remains the same as it's always been, which is very good. Where I think they have gone astray is with regard to the motor. Panasonic have a lot of experience producing Ebike motors going back a number of years, and that experience is evident in their reliability and the fact that the motor is able to integrate with different gear systems. I believe that Kalkhoff bikes as a whole are poorer since Panasonic were dropped as a supplier.

Like oriteroom, I prefer the older bikes. For me, the Pro Connect Disc with Alfine 8 speed hub gears would just about fulfil all my criteria for an Ebike. Super Panasonic reliability, ride and forget gears, low maintenance brakes, good range and a tough paint job. Why would you want anything else?

I think it’s all part of the power race which manufactures are engaged in. Because the customers demand it mostly. I think KudosDave put it well on one of his posts when he wrote that most buyers of the cheaper Chinese bikes for instance won’t pedal, can’t pedal.

The buyers of TS bikes for the road tend to be more the ex cyclist perhaps. But seem to be mostly the old farts like me who want some help on hills, or the fatties or unfit. Or the younger commuter who wants to go uphill without sweating on his way to work. If you read these pages you see so many queries about power and torque with various models. So I suppose the companies are giving the buyers what they say they want.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I think it’s all part of the power race which manufactures are engaged in. Because the customers demand it mostly. I think KudosDave put it well on one of his posts when he wrote that most buyers of the cheaper Chinese bikes for instance won’t pedal, can’t pedal.

The buyers of TS bikes for the road tend to be more the ex cyclist perhaps. But seem to be mostly the old farts like me who want some help on hills, or the fatties or unfit. Or the younger commuter who wants to go uphill without sweating on his way to work. If you read these pages you see so many queries about power and torque with various models. So I suppose the companies are giving the buyers what they say they want.

John...just to add to your post.
When I say that 'buyers of cheaper Chinese bikes don't pedal'....I don't remember stating that but if I did it was referring to the type of e-bike sold in Chinese supermarkets by the million....those bikes generally are designed for Chinese people to get to work....they do pedal but only to get the direct drive motors up and going.....normally they twist and go everywhere.
I wasn't referring to the cheaper of the Chinese e-bikes normally sold in the UK,which are normally designed as a true pedelec,using pedal power plus motor power.
This forum has more discussion about hill climbing power,assist speed cutoff and legality...the normal e-bike customer that we experience in the shops is still not that advanced in his knowledge,for most they are still asking basic questions about the principles of pedelecs and unsure whether it is for them,a test ride(irrespective of spec) usually decides whether the e-bike concept is their thing.
To my mind the power race is pretty much concluded,the BPM hub motor has so much torque that beyond that I recommend that customers buy a motorbike.
KudosDave

 

[tillson]

I think it’s all part of the power race which manufactures are engaged in. Because the customers demand it mostly. I think KudosDave put it well on one of his posts when he wrote that most buyers of the cheaper Chinese bikes for instance won’t pedal, can’t pedal.

I think you are probably right John, since I bought my bike in 2008, there are now more manufacturers fighting over what is still quite a small market. I suppose that in an effort to try and make their products stand out and to appeal to new markets, the manufacturers have equipped their bikes with more and more powerful motors and sportier transmission, with 10 speed derailleurs not being uncommon. This inevitably leads to problems because the transmission has been getting weaker, by comparison to the rather agricultural 1/8" chain and sprockets seen on the early bikes. At the same time, the motor has been getting more powerful. Result: we now see shift assist introduced and hub gears seldom fitted (crank drive bikes) in an effort to mitigate the damage inflicted onto the transmission by the motor.

Ultimately, an ebike is a heavy-ish utility bike. Its not a light-weight sportster, so why not stick to the principle of it being a utility bicycle? It can still look good, be nice to ride and just as importantly, it can provide many thousands of low maintenance, low cost miles. I think the latter is the most important feature, but the public don't realise it yet. Sometimes manufacturers need to lead and not allow themselves to be influenced too much by the public. it's a fine line to walk.

 

[JohnCade]

John...just to add to your post.
When I say that 'buyers of cheaper Chinese bikes don't pedal'....I don't remember stating that but if I did it was referring to the type of e-bike sold in Chinese supermarkets by the million....those bikes generally are designed for Chinese people to get to work....they do pedal but only to get the direct drive motors up and going.....normally they twist and go everywhere.
I wasn't referring to the cheaper of the Chinese e-bikes normally sold in the UK,which are normally designed as a true pedelec,using pedal power plus motor power.
This forum has more discussion about hill climbing power,assist speed cutoff and legality...the normal e-bike customer that we experience in the shops is still not that advanced in his knowledge,for most they are still asking basic questions about the principles of pedelecs and unsure whether it is for them,a test ride(irrespective of spec) usually decides whether the e-bike concept is their thing.
To my mind the power race is pretty much concluded,the BPM hub motor has so much torque that beyond that I recommend that customers buy a motorbike.
KudosDave

I think it was in a post of yours, and come to think of it I remember it was quoting someone in the UK who was selling cheaper shopper bikes to customers here.

But it might not even have been you at all. Or me if it comes to that. It might have been two other fellas.

 

[flecc]

John...just to add to your post.
When I say that 'buyers of cheaper Chinese bikes don't pedal'....I don't remember stating that

It was probably me, since I posted approximately that, but it was not my thought. I was quoting the boss of Thompsons Electric Bikes, Thompson senior, who said similar back in 2003.
.

 

[JohnCade]

It was probably me, since I posted approximately that, but it was not my thought. I was quoting the boss of Thompsons Electric Bikes, Thompson senior, who said similar back in 2003.
.

One other fella anyway.

 

[RobF]

Saw my first Kalkhoff Integrale today.

Looked a good quality bicycle to me, so on that basis my answer to the OP would be 'no'.

The owner paid £2,800 for it, so as ever, you get what you pay for.

It was a 'limited edition' but really looked the part in matt black with red piping.

Gates carbon drive, eight speed hub, automatic twin headlights, DT Swiss wheels, and no ordinary quick release on the seat post - it had a downward facing allen screw under a little rubber cover.

Not sure if that's any better than what we have now, but at least it's an individual touch.

The motor and battery were nicely integrated.

Solid mudguards, bolted to the frame, so unlikely to bend or flex.

The bike has a large display, a bit like an Intuvia, but not detachable.

That's a pity, although it appeared to be connected by two simple plugs, so if the display was smashed in a fall, replacing it wouldn't be too difficult.

The owner hadn't done many miles, but so far so good.

He told me the motor is a lot quieter than his last ebike, which was a crank kit.

 

[lordvincent]

The Impulse system is a significant upgrade over the Panny, not just in power but there is less of a knack to ridiing it and not getting caught by the cadence cut-offs and so on. Also being a 'proper' crank drive, that is having the motor output directly to the cranks, and not a chain drive, is also an improvement imo.

However if you manage 150 miles+ on a 10Ah battery, there is no need for more power since you use very little of the power already available, but that is not the case for most users, particularly those new to ebiking.

The overall Kalkhoff quality has not gone down from my observation, rather if anything it has improved; build quality and that of components is very high as is durability, although I agree that the expanded use of decals to decorate the bikes is not what I would choose, particularly since the battery stickers for my bike weren't available just one year after the model was introduced.

I agree with d8veh about the chain adjustment and wheel shifting problem for the Impulse bikes, but this is easily fixed with a couple of pullers/tensioners.

I think it's essential that ebike manufacturers innovate and develop, since at the moment they are attracting but a small minority of even the cycling public. The designs need to move away from the heavy and unsightly clunkers to being lighter and more streamlined, integrated, user-friendly and powerful.

Kalkhoff have been doing this for years which is why they remain brand leaders. If they were still using the Pannasonic then most of their custom would have gone to Bosch. Similarly the design aspect - they have constantly improved the aesthetics; although I didn't like the Integrale at first, now I kinda want one..anyway I say keep the innovations and improvements coming.

.