Is it a Pedelec or an e-bike?

[Kudoscycles]

The catalyst to make this thread was Johnathan's comment that member Creo needed a full e-bike.
I must say that I have often used the phrase e-bike but actually the difference in the dictionary definitions is at the root of 90% of the conversations on this forum.
A Pedelec 'is a bicycle where the riders' pedalling is assisted by a small electric motor,thus they are a type of low powered e-bike'
An e-bike 'is a bike that can be powered by electricity as well as propelled by pedals'
Thus a pedelec can be an e-bike but an e-bike cannot be a pedelec unless it is low powered.
Why is this important...the first 4 threads on 'which bike to buy' are all concerned with going up hills without pedalling,going faster,more power etc.....the response to these questions usually moves the thread into illegal bikes but it doesn't have to....there are many examples of an e-bike(note not Pedelecs) that will do this job...the Sachs Prime E,2011(available 800 watt motor),the Elmoto H2 ,KTM freeride....all will power up hills with no pedalling,are very fast,very powerful and have EEC type approval for easy registration.....why are we besotted with changing Pedelecs into electric mopeds,which cannot be legally registered in the UK,are not fast even with 500 watt and certainly not powerful.
As an experiment Kudos built a 500 watt x 48v e-bike,it is not that much more powerful than a legal 250 watt x36v bike,you still have to pedal up steep hills....I just don't understand why there is not a demand for bikes like the Elmoto H2,that has 3kw,serious grunt up hills.....we are mucking around with underpowered illegal electric mopeds when proper electric bikes are readily available???
When you put 48v and 20 amps into a bicycle it is no longer a Pedelec,it is a low powered electric moped....the website BikeZ.com shows bikes which are proper electric bikes.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

....why are we besotted with changing Pedelecs into electric mopeds...

I don't understand this obsession either.That kills the reason why we cycle.
Legal bikes are fast enough for 99.9% of my rides.

 

[mike killay]

At present, if you want to travel around at 30mph, go up all hills without pedalling, go 150 miles before refuelling, then a 50cc moped will do just fine.
But, you need all that legal paraphernalia, helmet, number plate, MOT, insurance, tax.
And you cannot go on cycle paths, or more than 15 metres onto common land etc.
That is why we like our e-bikes.

 

[flecc]

Well said KudosDave. When someone expresses a wish to go up steep hills with little or no pedal effort, the advice they should get and I've sometimes given is that an e-bike/pedelec is simply not suitable. They need as much as 3kW to do what they want, depending on their weight and hill steepness.

Unfortunately when I tell people an e-bike isn't any good for the job they want done, there's always those who will contradict and insist one can do the job, conveniently ignoring what the OP posted. For that reason I no longer enter those threads.

Perhaps we need a forum for the higher powered registered machines like the Sachs and Elmoto H2 that we can refer such inquirers to? Many are older people who passed a car driving test before February 2001 and therefore are pre qualified to ride one.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

At present, if you want to travel around at 30mph, go up all hills without pedalling, go 150 miles before refuelling, then a 50cc moped will do just fine.
But, you need all that legal paraphernalia, helmet, number plate, MOT, insurance, tax.
And you cannot go on cycle paths, or more than 15 metres onto common land etc.
That is why we like our e-bikes.

Mike....in that posting you have defined the root of all the arguments on this site,but you cannot have it both ways,well not legally. If you want to be classified as pedelecs you have to accept the restrictions placed by the law,that is right and proper,we don't want high powered e-bikes doing 28 mph along cycle tracks,promenades etc. If you move away from being a Pedelec(which is the title of this forum!) by powering up a Pedelec,you are now an electric motorbike,to be used on the highway.
The Pedelec has been developed to offer the max power/speed within the law,if that is not sufficient then an electric motorbike is the next step,I have ridden the Elmoto H2,it is very fast and goes up hills without pedalling.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

What would be attractive is a powerful e-bike that looked like an electric bicycle,but the registration process currently makes this very difficult. I could see a machine that was safe at 30 mph,with good brakes-to stop like a motorbike. How safe are the S-class bikes in Germany or Switzerland?
Maybe the upcoming pedelecs registration will make such a machine possible,but it will be highway use only and need tax,helmet,insurance,registration etc.
KudosDave

 

[Gringo]

I'm open minded regarding augmented EAPC's, I understand the law and if I ever decide to break it I'll do so discreetly
At the moment I'm more than happy with my legal Bosch active powered Cube but as my knees deteriate I will break the law with a now illegal twist throttled bike (even though I'll still be averaging only 10/12 mph)

Anywho,
As I see it, a lot of regular forum members ( or just a few vocal ones ) use/condone illegal machines and are keen to support other users with views like "the chances of getting caught are slim" and " the laws not fair, the speed limit should be 20/25/30mph etc" so when a new member asks a a simple question, the replys can make it looks socially acceptable to break such a trivial law.

It's that old argument about wich laws is it ok to break and by how much

30 years ago it was ok to drink 6 pints and ride my motor bike, it must have been because all my mates did it
my boss still smokes in the office when he's alone but he says it ok because it's a stupid law

 

[flecc]

It's that old argument about wich laws is it ok to break and by how much

Or as it always used to be expressed in an old and valid dictum:

"Laws are for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of the foolish".
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I'm open minded regarding augmented EAPC's, I understand the law and if I ever decide to break it I'll do so discreetly
At the moment I'm more than happy with my legal Bosch active powered Cube but as my knees deteriate I will break the law with a now illegal twist throttled bike (even though I'll still be averaging only 10/12 mph)

Anywho,
As I see it, a lot of regular forum members ( or just a few vocal ones ) use/condone illegal machines and are keen to support other users with views like "the chances of getting caught are slim" and " the laws not fair, the speed limit should be 20/25/30mph etc" so when a new member asks a a simple question, the replys can make it looks socially acceptable to break such a trivial law.

It's that old argument about wich laws is it ok to break and by how much

30 years ago it was ok to drink 6 pints and ride my motor bike, it must have been because all my mates did it
my boss still smokes in the office when he's alone but he says it ok because it's a stupid law

Actually your wish for a throttled bike after 1 January 2016 may not necessarily be illegal...the new regs state that grandfather rights are to be offered to bikes quote 'which have been used before 1 January 2016'
The phrase 'used by' is being interpreted by the trade in various ways.
But as I see it if a bike is fitted with a full speed throttle and has been tested prior to 1 January 2016 then that bike has been 'used by' the deadline date and therefore has inherited grandfather rights.
All my current Kudos bikes have been tested after build so therefore automatically attract grandfather rights....I suspect the rest of the trade will have their own interpretations of this sentence.
Any bikes built after 1 January cannot obviously have been 'used by' the deadline date so will be illegal with a full speed throttle.
KudosDave

 

[Gringo]

Actually

Yes but no but maybe.
I'm hoping to get a few more years out of my knees yet.
When the time is right I'll ether ride an illegal new bike or buy and rebuild an older bike with new parts

 

[JohnCade]

Or as it always used to be expressed in an old and valid dictum:

"Laws are for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of the foolish".
.

That saying has been attributed to a few people including Oscar Wilde. If it really was him who said it first it didn’t do him much good….

 

[Twangman]

To me it's just somatic calling it a ebike or a pedlectric to me if has a motor and pedals no mater if the speed restrictions is 15mph or wether the power is controlled by a sensor or throttle it's a moped. The Worsed thing I believe is that these bikes got lumped with regular bikes, rather than being seen as a completely separate entity hence why we get tied up in knots on what the leagalty should be. From time to time when I get the "that's cheating" from a cyclist I smile and say actually it's a under powered moped in disguise

 

[anotherkiwi]

This is a moped... with mauve pedals to boot!


and his mate

 

[flecc]

To me it's just somatic calling it a ebike or a pedlectric to me if has a motor and pedals no mater if the speed restrictions is 15mph or wether the power is controlled by a sensor or throttle it's a moped. The Worsed thing I believe is that these bikes got lumped with regular bikes, rather than being seen as a completely separate entity hence why we get tied up in knots on what the leagalty should be. From time to time when I get the "that's cheating" from a cyclist I smile and say actually it's a under powered moped in disguise

I strongly disagree, it's not semantics, the whole point of a pedelec in law and in fact is that it is not a motor vehicle. It's a motor assisted bicycle, remaining a bicycle in every way with power only applied through the pedals.

And that is how they should remain, as normal bicycles.

That then gives us access to all cycling facilities, something that would be lost if they are ever considered to be motor vehicles. The costs of that would be huge, no use of cycle paths or shared paths, no use of Sustrans tracks, no parking in cycle racks or on pavements, and the ever present risk of added bureaucracy and licencing costs being applied. As bicycles we are immune from all those risks.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Tony(flecc) I totally agree,it's not just semantics. One of the reasons that BEBA are having such a battle with the Dft is that throttles are perceived as a big leap towards making Pedelecs into motorbikes but with all the flexibility of bicycles,the Dft doesn't want this and obviously the motorcycle lobby doesn't want it either.
The 'cheating' by the 250 watt scooter sellers is doing none of us any favours,if those machines had only 250 watts they would barely move themselves along,they need 800 watts minimum to carry a rider.
There is obviously a demand for a bicycle that can be ridden by infirm or disabled rider but the problem is that to ride up steep hills without the ability to turn the pedals requires such power that the 250 watt limit is not enough and therefore the bicycle becomes a motorbike.
The Dutch are particularly good at looking after the disabled,there is a whole industry,supported by the Dutch government to enable such riders....there is a section at Eurobike devoted to the disabled,but Holland is a flat country with almost no steep hills.....I don't know whether the Germans or Swiss have bikes devoted to this use,anybody else have knowledge?
The best the industry is offering is Hi Torq/low speed BPM-CST motor with a 4 mph throttle but it still requires some pedal effort to climb steep hills.
Does anyone know of a legal Pedelec that climbs hills,without significant pedal input better?
We are offering Pedelecs not e-bikes,Pedelecs by definition are pedal assist bicycles not electric motorbikes.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

The problem for suppliers is that disabled riders tend to be also heavy riders and not proficient cyclists. The woosh crank driven Krieger/Santana CD are about the most powerful hill climbers I know that still have the full throttle until the end of the week. Even these 20A CD bikes can't move 120kg riders up 15% hills without pedalling. A good bike for disabled persons would be a 20" foldable fat bike with 20A CD motor and a full throttle.

 

[Artstu]

I wonder what percentage of customers have even heard the term pedelec? most will know them as e-bikes I'd have thought.

 

[flecc]

I wonder what percentage of customers have even heard the term pedelec? most will know them as e-bikes I'd have thought.

Indeed, or even just as electric bicycles. And that omission of the vital word "assist" is big problem. We are all guilty of this at times and really should stop giving them the incorrect name, since we are just misleading others.

The only truly permissible names are:

Electric assist bicycle

EAPC (electric assist pedal cycle)

Pedelec

These all indicate pedalling will be necessary, while Electric Bicycle implies the opposite, so shouldn't be used.

Trade members please note.
.

 

[Artstu]

I guess I could roll with electrically assisted bicycle/bike, the other two would probably require an explanation.
I suppose all would understand if you defined the subject in discussion on this thread as legal electric bikes and illegal electric bikes.

 

[flecc]

I suppose all would understand if you defined the subject in discussion on this thread as legal electric bikes and illegal electric bikes.

I don't think we should ever speak of legal electric bikes, since that still implies motor powered with no mention of pedalling or assistance.

Somewhere either assist or pedal should be included in the name to avoid misleading others.
.