Is it a bicycle or a motorbike?

[Kudoscycles]

All this talk about illegal ebikes and swiss upping the power made me look further into these power ebikes and I found the KTM eGnition....1200 watts,180Nm torque,30mph easily,very rapid acceleration. KTM say they are only going to make 88 units,price about $10,000....if you google it there are many videos,the noise is awesome-like a mini F1.
But at this power level aren't we in the same area as electric motorcycles....the latest KTM e Freeride is an electric motorbike,off road dirtbike,if you google it there are some amazing videos,if I was 20 something again I would love one,the price is less than the ebike and ok you have to tax and insure it but you have no legality problems.
The point I am making is that the ebike has its place up to a certain speed,price point,power but there is a line beyond which maybe the e-motorbike is the better solution.
One of my dealers had a 16 year bring in an ebike to show him,it was called something like Dragon TS500,the bike had 1200 watts was quick to 40 mph,it had no registration,tax,insurance,the kid only had a cycling helmet....my dealer checked it over and said the build quality was awful,the brakes were cheap hydraulics and not capable of reliably stopping the bike....the kid bought it off the internet....I will try to upload the photo...this emphasises the danger of having an open door policy towards power/speed on these ebikes....it sort of reminds me of the kit car industry 15 years ago,some kits had 500 bhp(turbo Cosworths).were badly built and driven by youngsters,there were numerous accidents including a fatality....the government responded by introducing SVA (now IVA),it pretty much killed the industry overnight,all the smaller companies were put out of business.
Sorry,I went off at a tangent,do we think a powerful e-bike is a better buy than a powerful
e-motorbike,the differences are becoming blurred?
However,for those who enjoy the power these must be exciting times for the electric bike industry.
KudosDave

 

[Clockwise]

I'm still waiting for undertaking at 25-30mph to become illegal on a regular bike.

 

[amigafan2003]

1200watts, is that all? My ebike has more than that.

The efreeride has 22000 watts peak, so quite a gap between that and the egnition.

And should this topic not be in one of the new forums?

 

[john h]

Seen this on Ebay, Cyclon bike kit double 3000watt 72volt 120 km/h 390.97 from taiwan.

 

[john h]

got last post slightly wrong double 3000 watt kit=698.92 they do 4 kits.

 

[trex]

Sorry,I went off at a tangent,do we think a powerful e-bike is a better buy than a powerful
e-motorbike,the differences are becoming blurred?
However,for those who enjoy the power these must be exciting times for the electric bike industry.
KudosDave

power scares me. Yes, I'd like to have a go on any new bike, 5 minutes should do it but buy it? no.
My priorities for a bike are: 1) beautiful build quality, 2) discret, don't shout 'steal me' and 3), VFM.
For daily use, 300W-500W are more than enough. Beyond that, you lug iron for no real benefits.

 

[Geebee]

The KTM is driven through the crank which means more grunt of the line and up steep hills and higher top speed for the wattage, which is also most likely only the rated wattage not peak.
A lot of Ebay bikes are rated at peak wattage plus many are direct drive which means extended steep climbing will cook them.
When the 750 watt Befang crank drive is released you will be able to get pretty impressive performance at a lot lower price than the KTM.

 

[EddiePJ]

the noise is awesome-like a mini F1.

Nah, the Conway E-Rider Extreme sounds much nicer. It also looks a damn sight nicer. Behind that, I'd put the Voltz E-Trail.

On topic though, I think that my 250watts is enough when it comes to the speed stakes.

I think that just being able to climb a hill at a reasonable and relatively effort free pace is enough. Speaking personally, I enjoy the fact that cycling gives me the chance to look at and take in what is around me. Adding more power could and probably would loose this element.
I also think that whilst it would obviously be fun to be able blat around a bit, I think that an increase in speed is soon going to start to have an anti social effect, which could spoil it for all. You only have to look at some of the videos posted on youtube showing the Stealth Bomber to see how stupidly that people begin to ride when they have more power.

The electric cycle market as a whole is in my mind going to come on leaps and bounds over the next decade or so, and I just hope that the quest for more power doesn't spoil it.
I'd rather just see battery duration extended than outright power.

I can't really see many youngsters jumping at the chance to own a powerful E-bike though. The cost will probably always be too high, and they aren't going to do the lads any favours when comes to pulling girls.

 

[LEBC Tom]

This is the bike that I was chatting about to Dave at Kudos, on the one hand I marvelled at how quick this thing can go (40 mph) but on the other in front of me there's a fresh faced bushy tailed wide eye'd 'kid' zooming around at 40 mph in London wearing nothing more than a cycle helmet for protection and this horrified me. The bike itself although it looked 'cool' was clearly not designed for such speeds, the build quality was appalling. Not for me to dictate to anyone how they should ride and at what speeds but I, as a responsible dealer it worries me that there are e-bikes which are clearly being purchased and used on the public highway when they shouldn't be.

 

[Geebee]

Most of the conversions I see around town are the same high speed direct drive motor on old department store bikes with rim brakes that are marginal without the assist.

 

[EddiePJ]

Bike manufacturers must spend a fortune on research, development, and trying to get the cycle parts to operate safely enough to be let loose upon the public.
It must be bloody hard being a bike dealer, trying to convince someone that their bike isn't safe to ride.

 

[ghouluk]

i own motorbikes, cars and e-bikes, within each section i have ones designed for different tasks. I also am quite target market for high powered ebikes, being a bit of a power hungry petrol head (battery head )

My jeep is not much fun on a track day, but its great when it snows.
the skyline is pretty much the opposite.

similarly my motorbikes will hit well stupid speeds, but it hurts a lot when i fall off, even with protective gear, etc, and it takes me 20 minutes to gear up - my ebike i can just get out the garage and ride.

with ebikes as you up the power, you have two choices, you break the law and measure the risk of being caught, or you stay legal(ish) at the moment the likelihood of getting caught is quite low, very few people own ebikes, even less know about them, but the groundswell is rising, it will only take a couple of people getting killed/killing someone else, and they'll start trying to license all ebikes. We'll all be at MOTs, power tests and insurance before we know where we are. We all used to run tinted visors and race pipes on our bikes in the 90s, then there was a couple of years of people getting visors confiscated and fixed penalties for pipes. Its calmed down a bit now, and i think almost at the 90s levels, but visors are nearly all legal tints, and most people have calmed the cans down too. Id hate to see ebikes go the same way.

Another 10-15mph with battery improvements to match would take my everyday ebike journeys from within 15 miles to maybe with 20 or 25, but its not going to make that much difference to me, I thought a lot about a high powered off road bike (genuinely to use off road) but i know there'd be a time when i just think....i'll pop down the shops.....so now my off road budget is going to a road legal bike i think.

I also think that the value beyond the initial 10 minutes grin factor is limited - A fast journey by bike is as much about good braking, handling and reading the road ahead as raw power, off road even more so than a commute. When you add that to the huge drop in range as you up power, its simply not worth going to high powers as it stands.

that said, unlike Eddiepj, i don't feel sorry for you ebike dealers, compared to standard bike shops, you're in a high price, high value marketplace at the moment.

 

[103Alex1]

This is the bike that I was chatting about to Dave at Kudos, on the one hand I marvelled at how quick this thing can go (40 mph) but on the other in front of me there's a fresh faced bushy tailed wide eye'd 'kid' zooming around at 40 mph in London wearing nothing more than a cycle helmet for protection and this horrified me. The bike itself although it looked 'cool' was clearly not designed for such speeds, the build quality was appalling. Not for me to dictate to anyone how they should ride and at what speeds but I, as a responsible dealer it worries me that there are e-bikes which are clearly being purchased and used on the public highway when they shouldn't be. View attachment 7080View attachment 7081

Front suspension forks, XTR drivetrain, disc brakes (hydraulic ?) and knobbly tyres. Considerably better specified than a load of retail eBikes in the £2,000 - £3,000 mark which get dongled up to over 30mph, surely ?

Battery is incredibly ugly but presumably this bike was accessibly priced ?

 

[ghouluk]

Front suspension forks, XTR drivetrain, disc brakes (hydraulic ?) and knobbly tyres. Considerably better specified than a load of retail eBikes in the £2,000 - £3,000 mark which get dongled up to over 30mph, surely ?

Battery is incredibly ugly but presumably this bike was accessibly priced ?

Pasak is a chinese russian cheapo bike iirc....doubt there is anything near xtr apart from the chainstay protector on it suntour xcm forks are budget, brakes are small rotor...to be fair though, was it the build quality of the bike or the electricification that was poor? the bike costs a couple of hundred quid in russia or thereabouts.

I agree though that i don't see that the danger of this bike is much greater than anything of around the same power, its not build quality, its rider and traffic ability that will getcha.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I think my posting was as much about value/cost as about legality. When you are on the distributor side of this industry it's so easy to get sucked into the attitude of mind that '£2k is not that expensive',after that £3k starts to look cheap....I found myself discussing the import of a £6k carbon bike at Eurobike.
But at the sharp end of this business and around £1k is really a maximum for most people.....our Kudos Tornado has sold out it's first batch of 50 units(next batch December) and whilst the Arriba is clearly a higher spec bike it's around that magical £1k that most want to spend.
My point is that once you hit £3k you are in e-motorcycle price point and whilst I take on board you need registration/tax/insurance these are not really that expensive. So I suppose at this price level you are buying an ebike for other reasons than value,you really don't want a motorbike and are buying the best ebike available
Our sale has given an opportunity for many to try an ebike without breaking the bank and don't forget the old adage 'IF YOU DON'T SPEND IT YOU CAN'T LOSE IT'.
KudosDave

 

[EddiePJ]

I couldn't even find the bike, but putting the letters XTR on things is pretty normal for cheap Chinese stuff. Even my £3.00 inc P&P from China tool bag has it on.
There won't be any Shimano XTR equipment on that bike.

£1,000.00 is still a lot of money to many people, but that does seem to be an accepted starting point for a 'reliable' E-Bike bike purchase.
2k hurt, when I purchased the BH, and I'd have liked to have seen better front forks on it for that price, but my (impulse) purchase was based purely on looks. I hated and still do hate the way that most manufacturers just position the battery as seemingly an afterthought, rather than trying to intergrate into the bike. In that respect the BH scores massively.
Sadly if the Kudos bikes that you have mentioned were identical in spec or higher in spec and still lower in price to the BH, I still wouldn't have given a second glance at a Kudos if they were side by side, simply because of the battery position. I get lots of comments about the BH being the least e-bike looking e-bike that they have seen, and that is the way that I like it. I don't how much input/influence that dealers have on manufacturers when it comes to design issues, but that is quite a key one to many people that I have spoken to.

If I had money to burn, I would opt for a Conway. That choice is based purely on the quality of the components, and I also like the way that the console is integrated, so avoiding/limiting crash damage. I've already knocked my console off when I crashed off road. Placing the console on the handles bars in a position that they can be knocked/ripped off, is not the best of ideas for an off road bike.

 

[flecc]

don't forget the old adage 'IF YOU DON'T SPEND IT YOU CAN'T LOSE IT'.
KudosDave

Actually lots of people do when not well invested, currently at 2.8% per annum, though historically as much as 15% per annum. I actually know a lady who sold a South London house over 15 years ago and has had the money in a zero percent bank account ever since. She's stubbornly convinced that any investment that earns any interest is very risky and won't listen to any contrary argument. By my reckoning she's lost over £100,000 to date and probably a lot more than that even after tax.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I couldn't even find the bike, but putting the letters XTR on things is pretty normal for cheap Chinese stuff. Even my £3.00 inc P&P from China tool bag has it on.
There won't be any Shimano XTR equipment on that bike.

£1,000.00 is still a lot of money to many people, but that does seem to be an accepted starting point for a 'reliable' E-Bike bike purchase.
2k hurt, when I purchased the BH, and I'd have liked to have seen better front forks on it for that price, but my (impulse) purchase was based purely on looks. I hated and still do hate the way that most manufacturers just position the battery as seemingly an afterthought, rather than trying to intergrate into the bike. In that respect the BH scores massively.
Sadly if the Kudos bikes that you have mentioned were identical in spec or higher in spec and still lower in price to the BH, I still wouldn't have given a second glance at a Kudos if they were side by side, simply because of the battery position. I get lots of comments about the BH being the least e-bike looking e-bike that they have seen, and that is the way that I like it. I don't how much input/influence that dealers have on manufacturers when it comes to design issues, but that is quite a key one to many people that I have spoken to.

If I had money to burn, I would opt for a Conway. That choice is based purely on the quality of the components, and I also like the way that the console is integrated, so avoiding/limiting crash damage. I've already knocked my console off when I crashed off road. Placing the console on the handles bars in a position that they can be knocked/ripped off, is not the best of ideas for an off road bike.

Eddie...interesting name that to old Pedelec members.
Battery position....My latest performance range has the battery postioned 'water bottle style' on the downtube....I had the option to put the battery within the downtube just like the BH bike but it increased the replacement battery cost from £198.00 to over £500.00,also the water bottle style is available from a number of suppliers whereas the 'in-frame' battery is effectively a one-off.
I would have liked to use LifePo4 on the downtube but this would have been too heavy and bulky for that location,however I have hundreds of Kudos customers who's LifePo4 batteries are now over 3 years old,still going strong,with no noticeable loss of performance,on the rear rack on a commuter bike the weight seems acceptable.
As you say you would not buy a Kudos bike for the battery position,I only respect that you are happy to pay for style and 700 euros to replace the battery is an acceptable price to pay for that style.
ps Despite my comments about the battery price I think the BH Neo Race is the best road-race ebike available,a beautifully balanced bike.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Actually lots of people do when not well invested, currently at 2.8% per annum, though historically as much as 15% per annum. I actually know a lady who sold a South London house over 15 years ago and has had the money in a zero percent bank account ever since. She's stubbornly convinced that any investment that earns any interest is very risky and won't listen to any contrary argument. By my reckoning she's lost over £100,000 to date and probably a lot more than that even after tax.

Actually flecc I am the same as your lady,events in Cyprus and knowledge of the workings of the city since big bang have made me realise that there is no longer such a thing as a 'safe haven'...I am by nature a risk taker but I don't trust any investments any longer.....my money is in a zero interest account in the biggest bank in the world losing money every year,but its about as safe as it can be....trust me PPI,Endowment mortgages etc etc are the thin end of the wedge to what these banks can invent thesedays to rip the money out of small businesses....as I said to my corporate manager recently at least you don't have to worry about the guys coming in with shooters because most of the crooks are inside the bank already!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[EddiePJ]

KudosDave, I'm sure that I signed up here a long time ago as EddieJ, but couldn't log in with that name, which is why I have the 'P' there. So unless the Eddie that you have mentioned, constructed oak framed buildings for living, used to race Rookie 400, a bit of Super Sport 400, briefly GP250, and restored classic GP race bikes, then I'm not the same one. And if I owe you or anyone else money, then I'm definitely not!!!!!

That's very informative about the batteries, so thanks for that. Eventual replacement for mine, was something that had already crossed my mind, but I guess that I'll just have to worry about that one when the time comes.

edit.. Please don't think that I was being critical about the Kudos, I wasn't and it's just down to my own personal taste.