Initial thoughts on Ave XH-3

halfer

Esteemed Pedelecer
The problem with testing bikes a notch or two above an already-busted budget is that you end up wanting one. The Ave XH-3 must be a case in point, since by some peculiar phenomenon I now seem to own one; thankfully half of the purchase price was covered by an insurance claim, which of course is only Monopoly money. I'll do a proper review once the bike's gotten a thorough testing; this brand doesn't get much attention, and I think it richly deserves to.

I'd already tried a Kalkhoff Agattu C8 Impulse HS, and found it rather too sensible and lumbering for my liking - I'm sure it's a very solid tourer, but I'm after a bit of design flair and some zippy performance. I rejected the Emotion Neo Cross too; even though it fulfils my criteria brilliantly, I just couldn't see how I was getting two hundred squid worth of improvements over the Ave.

I'd have loved to try an Oxygen, but that'd mean joining a two-month queue, and Wisper bikes at decent shops in my areas seem also to be becoming lesser-spotted.

Over the past few days, I've discovered that the Ave is serious fun. It's a Bosch central crank drive system sitting inside a sporty MTB frame, with a 8Ah 36V pack on the downtube. With high-quality Tektro hydraulic brakes and a very responsive Shimano Deore 9-speed derailleur, it made light work of the Hartlebury test hills.

I'm used to the Juicy Sport, which is a long wheelbase MTB frame, with a throttle and a full-size battery mounted vertically behind the seat-post. So a crank drive with no throttle is at first a peculiar experience - how does one launch onto a roundabout at rush hour? The answer is obvious to the non-powered cyclist, of course - you just pedal harder, and the effort sensor takes care of the rest.

So, it'll take some getting used to. Whilst the Juicy could zip along admirably, that was a sensible old dog to my new skittish and playful Ave puppy. The latter's steering is trigger sensitive, likely due to a smaller weight and wheelbase - it feel just like an MTB, which will be a serious boon if I ever get stranded without power. Sadly I am now forced to stop cheating with the throttle, and do some serious riding.

I've done one small five mile trip already, in cold/dry conditions, and a ten mile round-trip, partly at night in the wet. The knobbly Schwalbe Racing Ralph tyres cope with everything, although - given they're primarily for off-road, I think I might switch the rear for a Marathon Plus.

Minor niggle - the user guide is only in German, which is a right pain, since I'm still struggling to reset the computer to display speed in miles. It'll be hold left-right-top buttons down for three seconds whilst holding my leg in the air, or something like that. I'll get it eventually, but one'd expect better of Bosch.

Top marks to Martin at Onbike, whose enthusiasm and subject knowledge made it a confident purchase. I'll be holding him responsible for my poverty-stricken diet of Ryvita for the remainder of the year :)
 
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Blew it

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 8, 2008
1,472
97
Swindon, Wiltshire
Glad to hear you're happy with your new machine.

Ref. changing kilometers to miles on the HMI, I'm afraid this is not possible to do...at least not by the owner. Bosch have always advised that machines destined for the UK would always display miles, but this promise has never materialised.

I seem to recall reading about some guy who cobbled up an interface through which he could access the firmware and changed the display readout to MPH. My own machine is fitted with a separate wired speedo showing just MPH and trip distance. This was calibrated against a GPS unit. The only time I look at the HMI is to check the battery level. One thing I can confirm, the trip readout on the Bosch HMI is surprisingly accurate.

Have fun with the new bike.
Regards
Bob
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Pictures!

Once anyone try's a Bosch system bike it's a no brainer....confident you wont miss the throttle, welcome to bionic cycling! I was looking on German eBay where lots of dealers advertise and a smal range of decent Bosch bikes for around £1200. So they don't have to cost the earth. A big step up from your last bike ..welcome to the club, enjoy!

edit:

So members know what is being discussed, here is a pic...Very cute me thinks.

I like the sweep of frame, very much like my favorite Swiss Flyer bikes. I had to use crud catcher mud guards on my specialized, you might have to as well...

 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
When I see and read reviews about bikes like these it really tempts me to go out and buy one. I've owned my Kalkhoff with its Panasonic drive for 4 1/2 years now and I am feeling a need for something different. There is something uniquely exciting about buying and owning a new bike. I think it must rekindle the excitement felt as a child when a new bike arrived, usually on Christmas morning. No doubt, they look fantastic and the Bosch drive seems to receive praise from almost everyone who has experienced it.

But try as I might, and I really want to have a new bike, I just know that it will end in disappointment. The Kalkhoff with its unresponsive elongated frame, sensible mudguards, "granny" drive system and big wheels is like a stout pair of brogues. It's perfectly at home doing the boring things like the endless repetitive trips to and from work with panniers strapped to it. This AVE bike looks much more exciting and no doubt will command more respect and admiration from the sporty mountain bike types. It will also be great fun on trips out into the country and I could imagine myself enjoying the local Peak District on one. But this is only 10% of my requirement from an Ebike. For the remaining 90% I need the brogues.

I suppose that I could buy an AVE or similar and put smooth tyres, mudguards and a rack on it. But that would compromise the bike. Or I could have two bikes. But then I wonder how the AVE battery would last being stood for weeks on end without use. The same conclusion is constantly arrived at. I'll have to wait until my circumstances change and make this type of bike a more practical option.

Until then, I think I'll just have to admire these bikes from a distance and with a slight pang of envy.
 

RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
4,732
2,312
Once anyone try's a Bosch system bike it's a no brainer....

Hardly, given the system's apparent appetite for cassettes and derailleurs.

And most Bosch bikes have small batteries - is the range any good?
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
And most Bosch bikes have small batteries

No they don't. The battery has a greater capacity than the standard 10 Ah 24 Volt Panasonic battery and that is good for over 50 miles. The more refined and superior crank drive systems use the energy available in the battery much more efficiently than the hub motors, hence the greater range from a seemingly smaller battery.
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Tillson neither my or Halfers bike right for you. I would look at 28inch wheeled hybrids. I would sell present bike while it still has value..

Have a look here:

bosch | eBay

Although shimono won't apparently warrant their hub drives with a powerful motor (no interest in hub drives anyway) When I visit German pedelec I see no evidence of gear set failure. Hardly if I'm mountain climbing and putting a real strain on system anyway

Rob here is an insightful review by an Italian journalist.

Bosch Cannondale E-series Review | ELECTRICBIKE.COM
 
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GORDONAL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 11, 2009
333
6
sunny Powys(Wales),Spain
Hardly, given the system's apparent appetite for cassettes and derailleurs.

And most Bosch bikes have small batteries - is the range any good?
RobF

You seem to trot out this statement regarding cassette and derailleur wear on a regular basis , please provide some evidence of this I have read through many threads on this and the German pedelec forum and to date i have still to read negative comments about excess wear.

As Tillson states battery size is nominally small BUT from my own experience to date it is a very efficient drive system and i am still unable to start my battery conditioning with 3 deep discharges I have done 40km. on the initial charge with supposedly 30km. left .

As Eddieo has stated repeatedly for 12-18 months knockers must try one I was sceptical until I had a go with one . The XH3 was in Onbike when I opted for my MH7 and it looked a super machine quite envious really.
 

halfer

Esteemed Pedelecer
Eddieo, this is just an initial review; a proper one will be in a few weeks, once the bike has bedded down. I'll get a good photo session done as well :cool:

Blewit, thanks. Last night I downloaded an English version of the Ave manual... they do exist! It says this:

Note: Depending on the country version, speed and distance are displayed either in miles, "mi" and "mph" or kilometers ‘km’ and ‘km/h’ (can be changed by an authorized dealer)
So, I'll see if Onbike have access to the right equipment. How silly that the manufacturer doesn't just put a switch on the back of the unit!

Tillson, actually the primary purpose of this bike is for commuting and shopping (60 miles a week). So I'll be adding mudguards and at least one hybrid tyre: I've found the knobbly Marathon Plus to be good for tarmac and light off-road. I'll miss having a rack, as they were very handy to snap the gloves in when stopped - might try to mount a clip somewhere instead.

RobF, the small 8Ah did initially worry me, but I suspect - without the throttle to use the battery aggressively - I'll get 25 miles of moderate-high use, and 40ish in economy mode. It's worth noting that the central drive gets the benefit of the gearing system too, and so makes it more efficient than a hub motor. And the bike is lighter than systems carrying 15Ah batteries, of course.
 
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barrycoll

Pedelecer
Sep 14, 2009
235
11
I have given up waiting for a trial of an XH3 from my LBS, and got my £50 back this week....
...maybe the 50 cm machine that ebco were going to send down to London, ended up in Halfer's sticky fingers...although I would really want a 45 cm
spoke to Ebco direct, and there was a shipment expected of all the Ebco range, but it may not have included any XH3s....
there are some XH5s for sale on German Ebay, but having never tried one, maybe the frame geometry is not to my liking, and buying sight unseen is a bit risky...

as for centre drives chewing through sprockets and derailleurs, that really doesn't make much sense, as the motor is rated at (only!!) 250 watts.....
....on the excercise bike in the gym, I can pound along at about 120 watts for a modest time, and heavy duty blokes sitting on adjacent bikes can do a lot more....not to mention the Tour de France blokes who sit on 400 watts all day, until Cavendish turns out 1000 watts to get a win....
.....not much talk of shredded sprockets and ******ed derailleurs from that quarter, but maybe a few stretched chains, which may of course be the reason why rumours of problems evolve from the non- replacement of stretched chains....

but on the basis of Halfers review, I am now really keen again to get my bum into (or on to!) a Bosch bike saddle
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,209
30,608
as for centre drives chewing through sprockets and derailleurs, that really doesn't make much sense, as the motor is rated at (only!!) 250 watts.....
....on the excercise bike in the gym, I can pound along at about 120 watts for a modest time, and heavy duty blokes sitting on adjacent bikes can do a lot more....not to mention the Tour de France blokes who sit on 400 watts all day, until Cavendish turns out 1000 watts to get a win....
On all e-bikes, the quoted 250 watts is a nominal figure to satisfy the law, sometimes stated to be an average. In fact the Bosch unit outputs up to 500 watts, a common figure. Across the whole range of "legal" e-bikes on the market, maximums are between about 350 watts and 600 watts net power.

Necessity was the reason for this situation arising, since added powers of 200 or 250 watts when offset by the increased e-bike weight gave little climbing advantage, prompting manufacturers to stretch the meaning.
 

halfer

Esteemed Pedelecer
It seem that the dealer's diagnostic system uses a USB plug - wouldn't it be great if us ordinary buyers could get the software to drive that? I imagine this would permit the reprogramming of response maps, so you could get an off-road or super-eco mode, depending on what you need. I'd be confident the drive system could carry on assisting to 25mph at least. Wonder if anyone's tried this already? :D
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
I think justebikes may have the interface..but not sure. 2013 versions have a different HMI with mini USB interface, handy for charging devices. along with option of 11Ah battery (fits original holder)

Barry, the XH5 is a 29'er with better spec... I prefer large wheel bikes as they are nicer for road use
 
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halfer

Esteemed Pedelecer
Yep, USB support next year. I reckon the system has it already, but that either (a) one needs to connect the HMI to a USB interface via a custom plug, or (b) there's a USB connector inside the crank unit.
 

barrycoll

Pedelecer
Sep 14, 2009
235
11
thanks Flecc...

I didn't realise that the figure of 250 watts was 'nominal', as it were, and on the basis of that, one wonders just how much power the 350 watt Pro Connect BS 10s are turning out...
...but if BS 10s dont chew their own insides, then basic 250 watt Boschs should be fail-safe

not sure about 29ers Eddie....if you google the pluses versus minus of 29 ers, its all a mixed bag unless you are in tree root territory, although the aesthetics of the bike are appealing, especially the KTM Race 29

as for free running on give & take UK roads or tow paths, there wouldn't be much in it, and the other problem is when carrying bikes on a tow bar rack, there would be more overlap either side
 

eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
Flecc will advise but it is the Nms? figure that identify s the grunt 40 or 50 in the bosch I believe

Barry, that's fine but I did say for road use, have ridden MTB's on road and I would not have one. My crosstrail good enough for light trail. Like I said I'm not going on really rough stuf anytime soon! We carry bikes on rack, you will probably need a lighting board and hazard sign for Europe if you go there..., tow bars racks tend to have them anyway
 
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Blew it

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 8, 2008
1,472
97
Swindon, Wiltshire
To Halfer

To give you an idea of the range per charge you should expect to achieve with the 8ah battery. I found out purely by accident.

Day one: Fifteen mile ride. Machine in "SPORT 3" mode. Two hills were climbed on this ride, one quarter-mile at 12% and another three-quarter mile at 18%. Both of these climbs were in the highest assistance mode..."SPEED 3".

Day two: Nineteen mile ride in "SPORT 3" mode, but not including the two hills mentioned above. On the last mile of this ride, I noticed the assistance had dropped dramatically. Glancing at the HMI, I was surprised to see the battery was exhausted. Fortunately, the machine was very easy to pedal home without electrical assistance.

So, why was the battery flat after just nineteen miles, Yep! you guessed right... I forgot to charge the battery after the previous days ride. :eek: Actually, I remember when returning home I had to run into the house to take a phone call and maybe that's why I forgot to charge the battery.

As you can see, the total mileage on a charge was thirty-four miles, including two hill climbs at maximum assist. To complete the picture, I'm seventy-four kgs and sixty-nine years ancient.

To be fair, I just can't be bothered with constantly farting about with changing assistance levels when riding, I choose the level of assist that will suit the entire trip and leave it at that...It's about enjoying the ride, not pandering to the system.

When riding my Panasonic powered machine, It's just switched on and ridden in default mode, medium ( 1:1 assistance ratio ). That machine will climb both hills mentioned above in medium assist. When first starting to ride the Bosch powered machine, I wanted to establish the equivalent assist level. Firstly, I rode the nineteen mile loop in "TOUR 3" mode. On returning home, I felt unusually weary and my average speed was well down on the usual for that route. On charging the battery, I discovered I had only consumed 7.2 watt-hours per mile...which explains the unusual tiredness after that run.

The next run over the same route was ridden in "SPORT 3" mode. This run was far less tiring, needing only the usual cup of Columbian rocket fuel and a generous slice of cherry Genoa to restore the energy level. Consumption was up at 9.2 watt-hours per mile...similar to that of the 26v Panasonic on the same route. Average speed was still down when compared to either the Panasonic or Tonaro system on the same route. This is due to the Bosch system rigidly adhering to the legislation...assistance ramping down to zero at around 16.8 mph. Both the Panasonic and Tonaro machines are modded to assist to 18-19 mph.

Comparing the hill-climbing ability of the 26v Panasonic and Bosch systems, The Bosch is marginally more powerful than the Panasonic... but only at it's highest assist level.

Having ridden both systems for many hundreds of miles, I would contend the Panasonic system is certainly not cowering in the shadow of the much hyped Bosch system. The simple "switch-it-on-and-forget-it" control system of the Panasonic is very appealing to me. I suspect the Bosch system will be attractive to those button-pushing riders who like to analyze every heart-beat of the system...but see very little of the countryside they are riding through.

Looking forward to hearing more of your experiences with the new machine.
Regards
Bob
 

halfer

Esteemed Pedelecer
Thanks Bob :)

That sounds like an excellent range. As it happens, I am planning on recharging the Ave battery deliberately less often than the previous Juicy. With the old one, I recharged (pretty much) every night as a matter of course, and the battery is still going strong after 27 months. With the new one, I think I can extend its life by recharging every other day: if the life of a battery is 1,000 charges, I might get six years out of it rather than three!

I am of course conscious of the £400+ replacement price! :eek:
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,209
30,608
I didn't realise that the figure of 250 watts was 'nominal', as it were, and on the basis of that, one wonders just how much power the 350 watt Pro Connect BS 10s are turning out...
...but if BS 10s dont chew their own insides, then basic 250 watt Boschs should be fail-safe
The problem for all crank drive e-bikes is the fact of the motor driving through the gears. As Eddie remarks, it's the torque in Nm that can do the damage, and that pulling power is multiplied by lower gears. For example, on all these modern units like the Bosch, Panasonics and Impulse, in the lowest bike gears on a steep climb the torque applied is often well above the specified limit of any of the hub gears on the market. One bit of Tonaro publicity mentions a scary 128 Nm maximum!

Hence the greater use of derailleur gears on the more powerful ones, this avoiding the sudden breakage failures that can affect hub gears but of course not avoiding the high chain/sprocket wear resulting from very high applied torque.
.
 
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eddieo

Banned
Jul 7, 2008
5,070
6
The Bosch system calculates battery charge data. So say a partial 20% top up - times 5 = one full charge cycle. NOT 5 charges. Plus the fast charge time generally, a revelation...

anyway I (inspired by Tony!) have taken up walking as well...much safer and pleasent around where I live:D
 
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