independent e bike technician

[Woosh]

or are the proposed measures aimed at restricting Chinese made bikes with Shimano motors.

yes, it seems that way.
The Chinese are going to set themselves up as EU producers, like the Japanese have done with their cars.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I don't think it will be long before we see Chinese factories in th UK, like we did with Japanese ones back in the '80s.

Whoever wrote that report has about as much chance of getting back their share of the market as King Kanute did holding back the tide.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Interesting read. Not the same historical information that I have read - didn't the Japanese (Yamaha, Panasonic) invent mid motor pedelecs before Bosch?

 

[DBye]

Just an aside -Earliest patent that I can find that looks like an electric mid motor kit and is directed to pedal assist (rather than a full motor cycle) is by Ettore Bugatti of Paris, and claims a first filing date of 1942.

It appears to be a kit that clamps onto the frame and transmits power via a tube through the bottom bracket to a three arm spider that bolts onto the chain ring.

The crank shaft runs through the tube and also connects to the spider via a freewheel type mechanism.

Anyone know of anything earlier?

 

[flecc]

Interesting read. Not the same historical information that I have read - didn't the Japanese (Yamaha, Panasonic) invent mid motor pedelecs before Bosch?

Britain was first with mid motor pedelecs in the early 1980s, and one, the TGA Electrobike continued on the market through to the late 2000s.

Yamaha, Panasonic and Giant each had their own on the market in 1999, but that cumbersome Giant was replaced in 2001 with one using the Panasonic motor.
.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Just an aside -Earliest patent that I can find that looks like an electric mid motor kit and is directed to pedal assist (rather than a full motor cycle) is by Ettore Bugatti of Paris, and claims a first filing date of 1942.

It appears to be a kit that clamps onto the frame and transmits power via a tube through the bottom bracket to a three arm spider that bolts onto the chain ring.

The crank shaft runs through the tube and also connects to the spider via a freewheel type mechanism.

Anyone know of anything earlier?

That one looks pretty good, even by modern standards. I wonder why it hasn't been copied.

 

[DBye]

It looks to me like you could back peddle with it, which I quite like over the Bosch system (I believe that's was the case, it certainly was with the Rayleigh Modus I borrowed from a Cycle Boost scheme).

As the patent was published more than 20 years ago any rights that may have arisen will have long since expired so anyone can use it now.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Just imagine down the bar:

"What kind of e-bike do you ride?"

"A Bugatti..."

I agree with d8veh looks like a pretty good system but then again he was a pretty good designer. If only he didn't design all his own nuts and bolts too...

 

[stevieb]

so i started this subject a while back .
i haven,t been on here recently.
i have however been researching full suspension e mtbs.
i have a hardtail at the moment but for the weight etc of an emtb i think full sus is more suitable for any rough offroad.
however in this research that involved demo days and talking to retailers and manufacturers non of them are able to allay my fears about out of warranty repairs.
i thought things may have moved on since my first post .
or maybe they have ?
these new emtbs are amazing bits of kit but after investing thousands of pounds in one i would like a bit more piece of mind.

 

[flecc]

these new emtbs are amazing bits of kit but after investing thousands of pounds in one i would like a bit more piece of mind.

It's about numbers in Britain.

30 million cars and vans often costing tens of thousands and owners paying several hundred for annual services and MOTs.

Around 200 thousand e-bikes actually in use, costing a fraction of a car on average and most owners not wanting to pay for annual services. Even when they do they wouldn't want pay even £100, but a mechanic needs to live and premises and other business costs need to be paid for, whether dealing with cars or bikes.

So there just isn't enough e-bike business or enough money in it to have a national network of good repair facilities. Move to the Netherlands where every sixth bike sold is an e-bike and you've got good service facilities everywhere.
.

 

[mike killay]

My Chinese mid drive bike(TONARO) developed a broken freewheel inside the gear box. Despite looking at Youtube for advice, I could not dismantle the gearbox because a special tool was needed.
There are now no importers of TONARO in the UK, so I contacted an Australian retailer who advised a complete new motor and gear box and gave me the email of the Chinese suppliers. I emailed them and 2 weeks later a complete engine/gearbox assembly arrived at my house. Total cost was £180 for the engine/gearbox, about £100 courier from China and about £30 customs duty. In all about£300.
It took two bolts only to attach the assembly and then I joined the wires to the controller and away I went.
For me, Chinese bikes win hands down over the over protected European models..
If the bike had been a hub motor Chinese one the repair would have been even simpler.
Seeing how expensive European bikes are compared to Chinese, I cannot see much of a future for these over complicated machines.
I am convinced the e-cycling is going to take off and Joe Public will want cheap, easily repaired bikes, not the precious offerings of the European manufacturers.

 

[wheeliepete]

my fears about out of warranty repairs.

What are your fears? I don't think there would be any problem repairing your bike out of warranty, I would be more concerned about how much it will cost.

 

[stevieb]

So there just isn't enough e-bike business or enough money in it to have a national network of good repair facilities. Move to the Netherlands where every sixth bike sold is an e-bike and you've got good service facilities everywhere.
.

spot on Flecc,
this industry is still in its infancy regarding this issue

 

[stevieb]

For me, Chinese bikes win hands down over the over protected European models..
If the bike had been a hub motor Chinese one the repair would have been even simpler.
Seeing how expensive European bikes are compared to Chinese, I cannot see much of a future for these over complicated machines.
I am convinced the e-cycling is going to take off and Joe Public will want cheap, easily repaired bikes, not the precious offerings of the European manufacturers.

i agree with you mike,
e cycling is taking off but the general masses are going to dictate which direction its going in.
if the crank drive european manufacturers don,t get something in place soon then these kind of bikes will only be for the folks who can afford to buy a new motor if anything goes wrong inside .

in their defence , one manufacturers reps informed me that they recognised this problem and were working on some sort of scheme to provide you with a new or reconditioned motor in exchange for your faulty one.
still not ideal but better than nothing

however this hasn,t happened yet to the best of my knowledge.

i do believe something will be put in place soon , but its not there yet to my satisfaction

so i will carry on saving up my money towards a new full susser but won,t be buying until the knowledge and support have caught up

 

[stevieb]

What are your fears? I don't think there would be any problem repairing your bike out of warranty, I would be more concerned about how much it will cost.

thanks for your reply Pete,

You are correct my bike would be repaired out of warranty .

the problem as you say is the cost.

the point i,m making is that if something fairly minor and cheap to replace goes faulty inside the crank drive motor then the bike shops have not been given the knowledge or training to sort this.

this is not a problem if your bike is under warranty because the chances are you will just be given a replacement motor.
but when your warranty runs out i don,t fancy paying for a new motor for something that could have been an easy repair.
hope this explains my concerns
thanks

 

[flecc]

if the crank drive european manufacturers don,t get something in place soon then these kind of bikes will only be for the folks who can afford to buy a new motor if anything goes wrong inside .

In fairness to the European manufacturers, it was Panasonic Japan who started this. When they introduced their crank drive unit for other bicycle makers in 2001 they recognised that cycle shops would have no appropriate repair experience. So they made the unit very strong and sealed for life with no spares availability. The internal gears were so overengineered they looked like they'd been borrowed from a 125 cc motobike and it only had moderate power, so it was quite successful. However it inevitably had three possible bugs but fortunately they only affect a very few and many of those early motors are still running now.

When the Germans caught up with the idea of crank units, their Daum being the first, once again they were quite reliable, but then Bosch joined in with theirs also repair by exchange and the trouble started. They of course knew nothing about e-bikes and theirs had some differences, including some silly design faults like leaking in water and dirt and cranks falling off. They were soon addressed, but the other difference was that the unit was much more powerful than the Panasonic and Daum.

So those other two upped their game. Panasonic's second model was successful but still not as powerful as the Bosch, and being expensive gradually disappeared over here.

Meanwhile the original Daum had been adopted by Kalkhoff who called it their Impulse motor and it was fairly reliable though losing out to Bosch, so Daum upped it's power, Kalkhoff calling it Impulse 2. That has been a disaster with most units failing very quickly, many owners having multiple warranty exchanges.

At the same time the Bosch unit proved too powerful for most hub gears so those supplied for hub gear bikes were reduced in power and choices of power level units were introduced for derailleur bikes. Bosch have never achieved anything like Panasonic's reliability though.

Overall I always recommend that that if entering e-biking, buy a hub motor if there's one that will meet your needs, and there are for the majority of users. Hub motor systems are cheaper, far more reliable, generally easy to repair and give the bicycle aspects like transmission a much easier life.
.

 

[EddiePJ]

Flecc, I really love and rate the Panasonic system.

Stevieb.

I personally don't think that you have anything to worry about in respect of ebikes and potential out of warranty issues. I also don't necessarily agree with you comment about hardtails not making suitable eMTB's .

My one and only concern with buying used, would be in relation to the battery, as to my mind that is possibly the most vulnerable part, as everything else is either bolt on or plug in, and can easily be repaired.

I certainly wouldn't worry about the drive unit or other aspect relating to electrics. Taking the motor as example, most concerns and complaints that I read about, are in relation to bearing failure. Without exception all brands can suffer with this, but there is already an independent company in place to offer a replacement service, and in the case of Bosch, they to are also offering an out of warranty replacement kit for the drive side.
Again in the case of Bosch, the dealer training network is growing all the time, and with shops such as The Little Bike Shop in Cornwall for example taking on a role of becoming a "Bosch Expert Store" where by they will complete service work on any Bosch powered bike, irrelevant of brand or where purchased, the market trend towards this type of service could well expand across the country, and these shops could well be the shops that do well in a very uncertain trade.

Beyond bearings, there is very little to think about.

In respect of hardtails, not being suitable for eMTB use, I sold my full suspension eMTB a very long time ago in favour of a hardtail, as it sat unused for nearly a year. I hardly ever miss it, and certainly don't miss the hassle and cost of the annual shock rebuild and having to replace bushes and bearing three times a year.
There are pros and cons with both designs, but subject to use, I'd certainly not rule out a hardtail.

 

[stevieb]

Thanks for the replies
I certainly hope things will get better as time goes on as folks have suggested
As for hardtack emtbs
I stand by my comments as far as the type of off road riding I do
For non electric hard tails I am a big fan especially the new breed of plus bikes
There is a big difference between an emtb and a non electric as far as weight is concerned
If used for light trail work then a hard tail emtb is ok and maybe even better than a full sus for efficiency , but trying to take a hard tail emtb down a fairly rough trail with drops etc is not great
Like I said a hard tail non electric bike can handle quite a lot of off road abuse due to the lack of weight and can give a good account of itself up against a full suspension bike
I have risen emtb s hard tail and full sus and the full sus is far better for the riding I do

 

[EddiePJ]

Thanks for the replies
I certainly hope things will get better as time goes on as folks have suggested
As for hardtack emtbs
I stand by my comments as far as the type of off road riding I do
For non electric hard tails I am a big fan especially the new breed of plus bikes
There is a big difference between an emtb and a non electric as far as weight is concerned
If used for light trail work then a hard tail emtb is ok and maybe even better than a full sus for efficiency , but trying to take a hard tail emtb down a fairly rough trail with drops etc is not great
Like I said a hard tail non electric bike can handle quite a lot of off road abuse due to the lack of weight and can give a good account of itself up against a full suspension bike
I have risen emtb s hard tail and full sus and the full sus is far better for the riding I do

I can't say that I have ever found riding rough terrain to be in an issue, in fact my hardtail copes very well with it, and certainly don't miss the extra maintenance costs. Each to their own though.

 

[soundwave]

I can't say that I have ever found riding rough terrain to be in an issue, in fact my hardtail copes very well with it. Each to their own though.

View attachment 28301View attachment 28302

next time dont touch the brakes