I had an accident... AGAIN!!!!

[grldtnr]

Ahhhh! now I see the problem!
fair doos Cwah for having the dogs doodahs to ride such a beast, i would'nt want to, but then I am a bit on the large size ,so would not suit a Brompton.

Still does not mitigate the other party,your best recourse would be to try and settle up with the other, put it down to kismet if they don't , you are up the proverbial creek there/

I think it's more to do with the fact is does 27mph and pulls 1300 watts!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Just to clarify this point. I understand that the S class Kalkhoff has been Type Approved in Germany. As such it falls within the moped category here and could be easily registered and used as such. It would need to display a rear number plate and a zero rated VED disc, plus it would need to be insured and the rider would need to wear an approved helmet, but that's all. In the UK it is not a bicycle in the eyes of the law, but a moped, because of this.

Wouldn't it be nice, but unfortunately not so easy. You have to get it inspected to prove that it complies with Construction and Use regulations, which it probably doesn't.

There's still too many hoops to jump through to go down that route. What we need is a class - say up to 25mph - that could be made legal with a simple one-off safety inspection, and then attach an ID plate, basic cheap insurance and an approved helmet. I'd be happy with that.

Just to play devils advocate for a bit. Suppose someone bought a £600 Woosh bike with EN15194 plate on it, and then swapped the motor for a 201 rpm 500w BPM, gutted the existing battery case and slotted in a 12FET controller, and fixed a decent battery on the rack. This would be a similar situation to the boy-racers that re-map their ECUs and fit different exhausts etc, but don't tell anyone. They'd be in the wrong road-tax band, probably dodgy ground with their insurers, but at what point does it become illegal? Clearly fitting a motor with more power than the allowed 250w would seem to make a bike illegal, but then we're back to the argument about how to prove or measure the power of the motor as there's no sensible standard that could be applied other than it needs a label that says 250w.

 

[tillson]

There doesn't need to be a legal definition of something to be called something. What cwah has is a high powered electric cycle. The fact it has no legal definition or whether it is legal or illegal is neither here nor there - it's still a cycle.

Let us be clear, what we are talking about is not a bicycle. For the purpose of the law it does not fit the definition of a bicycle and that is all that matters. For this reason, laws relating to mechanically propelled vehicles will apply. I guess now the voices inside your head are telling you that all ebikes are mechanically propelled. Well that is not the case, there is an easement in law providing the ebike fits the prescribed parameters on weight, power, assist speed etc. If it complies, then the owner enjoys bicycle law, if it doesn't, its lumped in with mechanically propelled vehicles. The laws relating to mechanically propelled vehicles are virtually the same as those for cars, motor bikes and mopeds. In fact most of the road traffic laws start with the words, "Whilst...... a motor vehicle or mechanically propelled vehicle on a road......" A motor vehicle is defined as a vehicle intended or adapted for use on a road, which would be cars, motor bikes etc. A mechanically propelled vehicle would be anything else which is and can be used on a road but not specifically type rated to do so, a motorised lawn mower, steam roller, earth mover, some cranes etc. An illegal ebike would fall nicely into this category. It isn't type approved, it is mechanically propelled etc. So, all of the road traffic laws will apply (remember the wording above).

So cwah has been involved in a reportable accident (because a motor vehicle and /or a mechanically propelled vehicle have had an accident on a road and damage has occurred). There for, the law says that if a reportable accident occurs, the drivers most stop and exchange details or report the accident to the police within 24 hours.

If cwah makes a statement to the police or an insurance company which is intended to make them believe that he was riding a bicycle (which he wasn't) it could be viewed a perjury, attempting to pervert the course of justice and fraud. all of these carry severe penalties, perjury carrying a maximum of life in prison.

He just needs to think himself lucky he hasn't caused himself a life changing injury because it could seriously reduce or eliminate any compensation he might have received. And if his injuries meant he couldn't work or look after himself, his would become a burden and be unable to support his family. All for the sake of twatting about with big motors and batteries.

 

[amigafan2003]

mechanically propelled vehicle

I accept that this is an adequate description of the contraption that cwah (and I) are using, but not the only description - just the legal definition.

It doesn't mean it's a moped though. And it doesn't mean it isn't a high powered electric cycle either - because that's exactly what it is - both a high powered electric cycle AND a mechanically propelled vehicle - the two are not mutually exclusive - one is a legal definition and one is "just what it is". It certainly isn't a moped - at least what most normal people would describe a moped as.

For example, my Westfield is a "mechanically propelled vehicle", but it's also a "bright yellow sportscar" - the fact that there is no legal definition of a "bright yellow sportscar" does not mean that isn't what it is. Or the legal definition of the Vanessa atalanta, k.Animalia, p.Anthropoda, c.Insecta, o. Lepidoptera. But most people would probably call it a Butterfly. Or a Red Admiral if you were knowledgable on the subject.

But I appreciate you taking the time and effort to clarify your statement and I find myself agreeing with many of your points whilst disagreeing with others, although I suspect the latter is due to the different points of view that we are approaching the problem from.

 

[Jeremy]

Wouldn't it be nice, but unfortunately not so easy. You have to get it inspected to prove that it complies with Construction and Use regulations, which it probably doesn't.

There's still too many hoops to jump through to go down that route. What we need is a class - say up to 25mph - that could be made legal with a simple one-off safety inspection, and then attach an ID plate, basic cheap insurance and an approved helmet. I'd be happy with that.

Just to play devils advocate for a bit. Suppose someone bought a £600 Woosh bike with EN15194 plate on it, and then swapped the motor for a 201 rpm 500w BPM, gutted the existing battery case and slotted in a 12FET controller, and fixed a decent battery on the rack. This would be a similar situation to the boy-racers that re-map their ECUs and fit different exhausts etc, but don't tell anyone. They'd be in the wrong road-tax band, probably dodgy ground with their insurers, but at what point does it become illegal? Clearly fitting a motor with more power than the allowed 250w would seem to make a bike illegal, but then we're back to the argument about how to prove or measure the power of the motor as there's no sensible standard that could be applied other than it needs a label that says 250w.

Luckily it is that easy. Because the UK has agreed that any motor vehicle Type Approved in another member state is automatically Type Approved here, then I believe that all you need to do in this case is send a copy of the German Type Approval certificate to the DVLA along with the registration application form.

Also, we have a 25mph light moped category that is really easy to get through MSVA (or whatever they are calling it this week).

 

[tillson]

I accept that this is an adequate description of the contraption that cwah (and I) are using, but not the only description - just the legal definition.

It doesn't mean it's a moped though. And it doesn't mean it isn't a high powered electric cycle either - because that's exactly what it is - both a high powered electric cycle AND a mechanically propelled vehicle - the two are not mutually exclusive - one is a legal definition and one is "just what it is". It certainly isn't a moped - at least what most normal people would describe a moped as.

For example, my Westfield is a "mechanically propelled vehicle", but it's also a "bright yellow sportscar" - the fact that there is no legal definition of a "bright yellow sportscar" does not mean that isn't what it is.

You can call it what you like, a £uckertyarsebucket if it pleases, but when the filth arrive on the scene, it will be a mechanically propelled vehicle from that point onwards.

 

[flecc]

Luckily it is that easy. Because the UK has agreed that any motor vehicle Type Approved in another member state is automatically Type Approved here, then I believe that all you need to do in this case is send a copy of the German Type Approval certificate to the DVLA along with the registration application form..

That's correct, our motor vehicle type approval for all classes is the EU law fully accepted by the UK parliament on 10th November 2003, namely EU order 2002/EC/24. This is why 50cycles supply the type approval certificate to anyone wishing to go the legal route.

 

[amigafan2003]

You can call it what you like, a £uckertyarsebucket if it pleases, but when the filth arrive on the scene, it will be a mechanically propelled vehicle from that point onwards.

But I bet the first words are "is that a motor on your cycle"

Also, we have a 25mph light moped category that is really easy to get through MSVA (or whatever they are calling it this week).

Still msva - it's IVA for cars.

I'm intending to pull my full sus bike through the msva just for giggles - I'll post how I get on.

 

[eddieo]

You can call it what you like, a ****ertyaresbucket if it pleases, but when the filth arrive on the scene, it will be a mechanically propelled vehicle from that point onwards.

Talking to a brick wall....only consolation hopefully being no internet access in jail

"

 

[neptune]

Here is an interesting question. Suppose that you bought an "S" class ebike from Germany. And suppose that you got it registered as a moped. In addition to number plate, VED disc, insurance and helmet, would it subject to an MOT test after it was 3 years old, and would you need a driving licence?

 

[amigafan2003]

Talking to a brick wall....only consolation hopefully being no internet access in jail

"

Excuse me!

Have I not demonstrated that I have read, analysed and even agreed with multiple points of tilsons posts? Just because I do not agree with every point or that I have my own perspective does not mean I am a "brick wall". I thought we were having an intelligent and reasoned debate, without resorting to personal attacks or slights - something you seem unable to restrain yourself from.

So whilst we're at it - you are a very rude and insulting man eddieo.

 

[Old_Dave]

but when the filth arrive on the scene

If it looks like a bike, smells like a bike

Then the odds are they will take it as being a bike.. however the odds of the officer being able to do joined up writing is somewhat less.

 

[tillson]

Here is an interesting question. Suppose that you bought an "S" class ebike from Germany. And suppose that you got it registered as a moped. In addition to number plate, VED disc, insurance and helmet, would it subject to an MOT test after it was 3 years old, and would you need a driving licence?

My guess, without looking it up, would be that you would need some sort of licence (provisional maybe), and that it would need an MoT.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's difficult to say what people mean by "moped". There used to be a class of motor vehicle called "moped" where it was a motorcycle with a motor up to 50cc with pedals fitted and no speed limit, which 16 year-olds could ride. As engine technology improved, the speeds increased until somebody called "foul" in the early '80s and changed it to "50cc restricted motorcycle" with a 30mph speed limit for new vehicles. This of course made the old mopeds extremely desirable as they got rarer and rarer. Now they exchange hands for huge amounts.

Because I'm old-fashioned, I think of mopeds as the old NSU Quickly (actually not very quickly), Raleigh Runabout (of which you got a lot of), Puch Maxi and Honda P50. They would all get overtaken by normal bikes.

I worked in Germany for a bit and took my motorbike over to ride with some of my work colleagues. They referred to their high powered motorbikes as "mopeds".

 

[Old_Dave]

My guess, without looking it up, would be that you would need some sort of licence

And maybe a cbt, which like the provisional licence doesn't last for long.

 

[amigafan2003]

Here is an interesting question. Suppose that you bought an "S" class ebike from Germany. And suppose that you got it registered as a moped. In addition to number plate, VED disc, insurance and helmet, would it subject to an MOT test after it was 3 years old, and would you need a driving licence?

It would need an mot after one year (as do most vehicles that have passed through the msva or iva process - although I got lucky with my Westfield as DVLA ticked the wrong box so mot after three years).

If you got a driving licence before 2001 you can just ride it. If after 2001 you need to complete CBT as well. You could ride it on a provisional license from 16yrs old whilst you're learning.

 

[Jeremy]

Here is an interesting question. Suppose that you bought an "S" class ebike from Germany. And suppose that you got it registered as a moped. In addition to number plate, VED disc, insurance and helmet, would it subject to an MOT test after it was 3 years old, and would you need a driving licence?

Yes you would need an appropriate driving licence, but if you have a car licence that was issued prior to 1st Feb 2001 then that is automatically a full moped licence. If you have a car licence that is newer than that, or don't have a licence at all, then you need a provisional licence and take the CBT course. You will also need an MOT after three years and every year after that.

 

[Jeremy]

It's difficult to say what people mean by "moped". There used to be a class of motor vehicle called "moped" where it was a motorcycle with a motor up to 50cc with pedals fitted and no speed limit, which 16 year-olds could ride. As engine technology improved, the speeds increased until somebody called "foul" in the early '80s and changed it to "50cc restricted motorcycle" with a 30mph speed limit for new vehicles. This of course made the old mopeds extremely desirable as they got rarer and rarer. Now they exchange hands for huge amounts.

Because I'm old-fashioned, I think of mopeds as the old NSU Quickly (actually not very quickly), Raleigh Runabout (of which you got a lot of), Puch Maxi and Honda P50. They would all get overtaken by normal bikes.

I worked in Germany for a bit and took my motorbike over to ride with some of my work colleagues. They referred to their high powered motorbikes as "mopeds".

I used to think the same, the word "moped" conjured up images of the Quickly (what a misnomer that was, as you say......).

When I acquired my basket case RD50 (which became an electric moped) I delved into the law again, and it's a right minefield. The age of the bike plays a part in which law applies, the regulations having been massively overhauled during that period when fast mopeds were all the rage (think tuned FS1Es......).

Now we have two moped categories, one of which is really more like a bicycle (the Light Moped category) and one of which is more like a light motorcycle (the Moped category). The Light Moped category is probably the one most of interest to those looking at a more powerful ebike, but speed restriction is a little out of proportion and makes going for the full moped category a better bet even though the requirements are a fair bit stiffer.

 

[mountainsport]

I'm so ****ed off by London drivers. They really drive like us cyclists don't exist. When I give them more room on the road, they take this opportunity drive on this room......................

Tonight, I was out with my cycle, I was in Picadilly, on a cross road. I was about to cross to the other side of the road and was looking carefully on both side that everything was clear. AS I ALWAYS DO! First lane was clear, so I started to cross.

A driver came behind me, and turned on the right without much consideration on my bike. The other side of the road had cars, so I couldn't cross to escape him.

He didn't slow down, he probably thought I was going to run away to avoid him. BUT I CAN'T.

I LITTERALLY LOOKED AT HIM RUNNING INTO MY BIKE! I WAS IN FRONT OF HIM!!!

He run through my bike, I felt on the floor, my bike too. There was maybe 20 people watching the scene some girls screamed a bit........

THE DRIVER THEN ACCELERATE TO RUN AWAY!!!


As I was fine, I immediately stand up to take a picture and get his car number:

Unfortunately for the driver, he couldn't run very far. It's picadilly. It's always crowded. No way he could have escaped.

People came to and and told me the driver stopped. I immediately turn off my light to make sure no one notice my electric bike, then go to meet him.

He told me that I probably arrived from behind a truck that's why he didn't see me. But I WAS IN FRONT OF HIM, NOT BEHIND. I repeated it probably 3 times.

My brompton rear rack is broken now:

He told me then that I don't have insurance and there's nothing to do. Then he gave me his card, and told me that I can email him, and ran away................


I'm fine but he did some damage to my Brompton. What should I do, and what can I do?

Hello cwah,

First of all thank God that you are ok and still in good health.If the cab driver was telling the truth that he genuinely hadn't seen you,we will have to go back to the drawing board regarding our own personal safety. I can see that it was during the night time,so obviously your lights were on,do you wear a HV vest or jacket?

In the case of pursuing things,i think it may just open up a can of worms,but the choice is yours.Anyway i'm glad that your ok.

Mountainsport.

 

[cwah]

Thanks guys for all your support.

I'm hopefully fine. I only have few bruises and a hole in my jean. But all's fine.

I VERY CAUTIOUS WHEN RIDDING. To date, I've never had any accident caused by my fault. Everytime it was the other driver fault. I can count maybe 5 in total:
- Once I crashed a pedestrian that jumped on me
- Once a driver turned suddently on the left and I crashed on him and pocked a small cavity to his door. Somehow my brompton re-enforced battery bag is good as protection against car crash hehe.
- Once a driver opened the door when I was cycling and throw me on the floor
- Once I wheeeliiied to the floor trying to compet against a motorbike on acceleration.
- And the last one is this one.................


So, again, never my fault. And my "illegal" bicycle had never done any harm. And anyway NO ONE NOTICED it's an electric bike once the light is turned off.


I'm very visible on the road. Rear and front light. Drivers and pedestrians tend to tell me that my light are too bright lol. And others tell me that my bike looks like a christmas tree!

I think he saw me. I was in front of him with strong light. He wanted me to move away from his path knowing that he is "bigger" than me. Road makes me feel like "the jungle rules" world. Obviously, he's not going to confess that was what he wanted to do. He would directly go to jail lol


I sent him an email just for the repayment of the brompton rear carrier. About £96. But that's it.


I'm not so much interested in getting money back, but much more about what we can do with this kind of people. They shouldn't be able to run away with impunity with such a behaviour!

ps: Cab driver in london are the WORST in term of "jungle rules". They are careless and try to bypass anywhere, anytime, whatever the risk involved. I suppose most of them have good insurance against crash.