I had an accident... AGAIN!!!!

[cwah]

I'm so ****ed off by London drivers. They really drive like us cyclists don't exist. When I give them more room on the road, they take this opportunity drive on this room......................

Tonight, I was out with my cycle, I was in Picadilly, on a cross road. I was about to cross to the other side of the road and was looking carefully on both side that everything was clear. AS I ALWAYS DO! First lane was clear, so I started to cross.

A driver came behind me, and turned on the right without much consideration on my bike. The other side of the road had cars, so I couldn't cross to escape him.

He didn't slow down, he probably thought I was going to run away to avoid him. BUT I CAN'T.

I LITTERALLY LOOKED AT HIM RUNNING INTO MY BIKE! I WAS IN FRONT OF HIM!!!

He run through my bike, I felt on the floor, my bike too. There was maybe 20 people watching the scene some girls screamed a bit........

THE DRIVER THEN ACCELERATE TO RUN AWAY!!!


As I was fine, I immediately stand up to take a picture and get his car number:

Unfortunately for the driver, he couldn't run very far. It's picadilly. It's always crowded. No way he could have escaped.

People came to and and told me the driver stopped. I immediately turn off my light to make sure no one notice my electric bike, then go to meet him.

He told me that I probably arrived from behind a truck that's why he didn't see me. But I WAS IN FRONT OF HIM, NOT BEHIND. I repeated it probably 3 times.

My brompton rear rack is broken now:

He told me then that I don't have insurance and there's nothing to do. Then he gave me his card, and told me that I can email him, and ran away................


I'm fine but he did some damage to my Brompton. What should I do, and what can I do?

 

[grldtnr]

if you have his reg no,report to the police! be very insistent about it, hopefully you will have some independent witness to verify your claims, whether you have insurance is immaterial, you are not at fault, the driver was driving with undue care.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Bad luck Cwah. Did you get any details of witnesses. If you did, then you;re in a much stronger position. Maybe use an injury lawyer to sort it all out for you. I'd keep quiet about your bike being electric. If anybody wants to inspect it or if they want photos, remove all the electric stuff first. If you didn't get any witness details then you can try sending the guy a bill and hope that he pays. For the repairs we'd need to see more photos because only the brompton owners will recognise those bits in the photo.

 

[103Alex1]

Bad luck there - sorry to hear you had an accident. I strongly recommend looking into membership of British Cycling. They have a free legal helpline if you're involved in an accident and will pursue claims for you. I know it won't help you this time but maybe if it happens again (although pray not !!!!)

1st year's subs half price at £12 with this code valid until 31/12/2012 : Vouchers

Legal Assistance cover comes free with membership :

Legal Support and Assistance

 

[grldtnr]

d8veh,
I fail to see whether it makes any difference if its an electric bike or not,unless it is non compliant? At the least Cw ah you should pursue a small claims at the courts to claim any damages. speak to a solicitor or citizens advice about that ,it will cost to do that ,but if your claim is good ,you will be awarded costs & damages, those personal injury lawyers are only interested in their fee's , they may win the case ,but not chase up any relevant claims involved.

Again I urge you to report the matter to the Police, the driver should not get away with that, be insistent that you want something done ,do not be fobbed off ,bt them saying to pursue a small claims against them.

Bad luck Cwah. Did you get any details of witnesses. If you did, then you;re in a much stronger position. Maybe use an injury lawyer to sort it all out for you. I'd keep quiet about your bike being electric. If anybody wants to inspect it or if they want photos, remove all the electric stuff first. If you didn't get any witness details then you can try sending the guy a bill and hope that he pays. For the repairs we'd need to see more photos because only the brompton owners will recognise those bits in the photo.

 

[RobF]

At best all the police can do is mount a criminal prosecution against the other driver, which does nothing to compensate the OP.

If the other driver is insured, it is a simple matter to claim direct against his insurers.

The police might provide the name of the insurance company, but it's easier to use the Motor Insurers' Database.

They charge £4 to provide the name of the insurance company, once the OP has that, he simply contacts them and makes a claim as an injured party.

Most companies settle minor claims with very little argument - it's a source of frustration to some drivers - but that's a discussion for another day.

askMID

 

[shemozzle999]

I would keep the claim with the third party low key due to the illegal nature of your bike and the fact that it is probably recorded on CCTV if it occured in Picadilly.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

d8veh,
I fail to see whether it makes any difference if its an electric bike or not,unless it is non compliant? At the least Cw ah you should pursue a small claims at the courts to claim any damages. speak to a solicitor or citizens advice about that ,it will cost to do that ,but if your claim is good ,you will be awarded costs & damages, those personal injury lawyers are only interested in their fee's , they may win the case ,but not chase up any relevant claims involved.

Again I urge you to report the matter to the Police, the driver should not get away with that, be insistent that you want something done ,do not be fobbed off ,bt them saying to pursue a small claims against them.

His bike is technically illegal.

 

[Jeremy]

I fail to see whether it makes any difference if its an electric bike or not,unless it is non compliant?

The simple answer is that, beyond any doubt, this electric Brompton is an unregistered, uninsured motor vehicle that was being used illegally on a public highway. That's not a criticism of Cwah or his bike, just a statement of fact.

Should this fact become clear to the motorist, his insurers or, heaven forbid, the police, then irrespective of the circumstances of this accident Cwah could find himself charged with a range of offences, some of which can incur a fairly stiff penalty.

Off the top of my head, I would imagine that the CPS could bring charges of riding an unregistered motor vehicle on a public road, contrary to the Road Traffic Act, riding a motor vehicle without insurance, riding a motor vehicle without an approved crash helmet, riding a motor vehicle without an appropriate licence, failure to display a current VED disc, riding a motor vehicle at night without approved lighting, failure to display a registration number, failure to comply with the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations, and probably a few more if I could be bothered to go through some books and check.

That doesn't remove the liability from the motorist in any way, and Cwah would still have a valid claim for any damage or injury he or his bike suffered, but it does mean that making such a claim could expose him to a host of charges.

 

[tillson]

His bike is technically illegal.

If his bike is illegal, the best course of action would be to do nothing. Any statements that he makes in which he claims or implies that he was riding a bicycle will be false and leave him exposed to penalties which are far greater than any road traffic offences committed by him or the other driver.

This is a reportable accident (by accident I mean the legal definition because the bike involved is actually a motor vehicle / mechanically propelled vehicle) and as such, both parties are under an obligation to stop at the scene and exchange details or to report the accident to the police within 24 hours of it occurring. It sounds as if he has spoken to the driver, so the best thing to do is leave it at that. Taking this any further has the potential to open up a can of worms.

If you are going to ride mopeds without tax, insurance, MoTs, a licence, or anything else, you can't expect the law to work in your favour by ignoring the bits which apply to your own law breaking. As much as you want it to, it doesn't work like that.

Edit

Crossed with Jeremy's post & agree with what he says. I still think that you should just leave this one and take some comfort from the fact that you were not injured.

 

[amigafan2003]

If you are going to ride an illegal ebike you can't expect the law to work in your favour by ignoring the bits which apply to your own law breaking. As much as you want it to, it doesn't work like that.

This!

Doing anything else would be akin to someone commiting burglrary then suing the houseowner for falling down the stairs in the dark.

Also edited slightly as cwah's bike is clearly a cycle, not a moped. Just becuase there is no adeqate legal definition for a high powered electric cycle does not mean they are automatically mopeds. Show cwah's bike to anyone in the street and they'd call it a cycle, not a moped. Is a an S class Kalkhoff a moped or a cycle? It's clearly a cycle and would be called such in Germany. It doesn't sudeenly become a moped over here just because we don't have the supporting legislation.

Back on topic, very sorry to hear of your accident cwah but I think your best course of action would be to send an invoice to the driver and request re-imbursement. If nothing comes of it I'd leave it at that - my consience at least wouldn't let me do any more - certainly not initiate legal proceedings concerning an accident that happened whilst I was undertaking an illegal activity.

If you want more protection (and recourse in the event of an accident) it's probably time to come back within the bounds of the law.

 

[Jeremy]

This!

Doing anything else would be akin to someone commiting burglrary then suing the houseowner for falling down the stairs in the dark.

Also edited slightly as cwah bike is clearly a cycle, not a moped.

AFAICS, cwah's Brompton definitely isn't a bicycle as far as the law is concerned. The law is clear on what constitutes a bicycle, electrically assisted or otherwise.

As an unregistered motor vehicle (which is the only category into which it could fit) then it isn't a moped, either. To be a moped it would have to be registered and to have been shown to meet the requirements of either of the two different moped definitions.

This is the key issue when you have a vehicle that doesn't meet the requirements of any category, it falls into the "unregistered motor vehicle" category by default, which then opens up the charge list to a far greater range of offences that may have been committed than would be the case if it was categorised as either a bicycle or a moped.

 

[tillson]

This!

Doing anything else would be akin to someone commiting burglrary then suing the houseowner for falling down the stairs in the dark.

Also edited slightly as cwah's bike is clearly a cycle, not a moped. Just becuase there is no adeqate legal definition for a high powered electric cycle does not mean they are automatically mopeds. Show cwah's bike to anyone in the street and they'd call it a cycle, not a moped. Is a an S class Kalkhoff a moped or a cycle? It's clearly a cycle and would be called such in Germany. It doesn't sudeenly become a moped over here just because we don't have the supporting legislation.

I always look forward to your responses for their comedy value and you rarely disappoint.

I just can't be bothered to argue with you. You don't appear to have the necessary mental tools to understand what is being said.

 

[amigafan2003]

I always look forward to your responses for their comedy value and you rarely disappoint.

I just can't be bothered to argue with you. You don't appear to have the necessary mental tools to understand what is being said.

Ad homien fallacy again.

What's wrong with the post? Where am I wrong? Is there any part of my classical Greek debating style you do not comprehend?

Stating "I can't be bothered" is an indication of someone who has lost an argument and can't intelligently construct reasonable rebuttals to further thier own viewpoint. It's akin to saying "well, if you wont let me score any goals then I'm going home and taking my ball with me".

AFAICS, cwah's Brompton definitely isn't a bicycle as far as the law is concerned. The law is clear on what constitutes a bicycle, electrically assisted or otherwise.

There doesn't need to be a legal definition of something to be called something. What cwah has is a high powered electric cycle. The fact it has no legal definition or whether it is legal or illegal is neither here nor there - it's still a cycle.

As an unregistered motor vehicle (which is the only category into which it could fit) then it isn't a moped, either. To be a moped it would have to be registered and to have been shown to meet the requirements of either of the two different moped definitions.

So why did you call it a moped then?

 

[Jeremy]

Is a an S class Kalkhoff a moped or a cycle? It's clearly a cycle and would be called such in Germany. It doesn't sudeenly become a moped over here just because we don't have the supporting legislation.

Just to clarify this point. I understand that the S class Kalkhoff has been Type Approved in Germany. As such it falls within the moped category here and could be easily registered and used as such. It would need to display a rear number plate and a zero rated VED disc, plus it would need to be insured and the rider would need to wear an approved helmet, but that's all. In the UK it is not a bicycle in the eyes of the law, but a moped, because of this.

 

[banbury frank]

Hi Everybody

I personally think cwah is a total NUT job BUT A great guy and I am Glad he is OK As his posting give us all much amusement BUT Not the accident


Frank

 

[Jeremy]

There doesn't need to be a legal definition of something to be called something. What cwah's has is a high powered electric cycle. The fact it has no legal definition is neither here nor there.

The difference here is between popular parlance and legal definition.

You can call something whatever you wish as a popular term of reference, for example referring to any vacuum cleaner as a Hoover. You cannot do the same in every circumstance, though. for example if Dyson started calling its vacuum cleaners "Hoovers" they would find themselves in the courts before long.

We may choose to refer to cwah's vehicle as a "high powered electric cycle", but such a term has no legal meaning. It's either a bicycle (including approved ebikes) or it's a motor vehicle. Statute Law has no grey areas of interpretation, unlike other areas of the law, and this is the specific problem that non-approved ebikes face if they end up being scrutinised by the police and CPS.

 

[neptune]

Oh dear Cwah, what an unfortunate state of affairs. Take comfort from the fact that you are uninjured, and will live to ride another day. I am sure we all have sympathy for you. Your bike can be fixed. The consensus of opinion seems to be that your bike is illegal. I am assuming that, as a kit type, it has no type approval. We are all in a precarious position, as very few bikes are legal, strictly speaking. I am afraid **** happens, and we all have to deal with it as best as we can. Keep your chin up, you are still with us.

 

[amigafan2003]

I am assuming that, as a kit type, it has no type approval.

I think it's more to do with the fact is does 27mph and pulls 1300 watts!

 

[Jeremy]

I am assuming that, as a kit type, it has no type approval. We are all in a precarious position, as very few bikes are legal, strictly speaking.

I think it's more to do with the fact is does 27mph and pulls 1300 watts!

Either of these make it a motor vehicle, rather than a bicycle in this case. The difference between a kit built ebike that meets the requirements in the regulations but isn't approved and a high powered ebike that doesn't meet the requirements in the regulations should only affect the sentence that might be awarded in the event of prosecution.

I strongly suspect that in practice the owner of an ebike that met the requirements in the regulations but which wasn't approved might never be prosecuted, as the CPS would almost certainly take the view that the sentence would be either a very small fine or even an absolute discharge. The CPS work on a "scoring system" when deciding whether to press charges, and as well as including the probability of a successful prosecution (a foregone conclusion in the case of a clear breach of Statute Law) they also look at the cost of bringing the case versus the public benefit that might accrue. They are usually savvy enough to know that the magistrates would, in all probability, consider a straightforward case of a breach of the EPAC or EAPC regulations (on their own) as too trivial to be worth a significant sentence. In this case the CPS would almost certainly conclude that it wasn't worth spending tax payers money on in court.

The situation could be very different in the case of an illegal ebike involved in an accident, though, particularly if there was damage or injury. Historically they have been very hot on prosecuting any illegal motor vehicle use that has been involved in an accident, so I have no doubt they would chuck as many charges at the defendant as possible.