Hydrogen Powered bikes

[Artov]

It will come for cars, more refuelling stations are appearing
http://www.itm-power.com/sectors/clean-fuel
Not sure it will be a game changer for bikes though.

 

[Woosh]

Not sure it will be a game changer for bikes though.

I would have thought that the only game changer for e-bikes is drastic weight reduction.

 

[EmSeeDee]

Might be a bit of a challenge to the interpreters of the law. There's an implicit assumption in the regulations that an EAPC will be powered by electrically rechargeable batteries of some sort. The hydrogen technology is more akin to refilling with petrol. Don't suppose anyone thought of emerging technologies when the rules were written.

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[flecc]

Might be a bit of a challenge to the interpreters of the law. There's an implicit assumption in the regulations that an EAPC will be powered by electrically rechargeable batteries of some sort. The hydrogen technology is more akin to refilling with petrol. Don't suppose anyone thought of emerging technologies when the rules were written.

In this respect I think emissions will increasingly become the ruling factor, that's already beginning to happen in some areas.
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[EmSeeDee]

Agreed, but it's going to make nonsense of the current divisions between EAPCs, electric scooters, and proper full-blown electric motorcycles such as the Zero. I suspect that the pressures to only allow EAPCs that are formally type-approved will become unavoidable (although without any form of registration for them, I can't see how it would be enforceable).

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[anotherkiwi]

Might be a bit of a challenge to the interpreters of the law. There's an implicit assumption in the regulations that an EAPC will be powered by electrically rechargeable batteries of some sort. The hydrogen technology is more akin to refilling with petrol. Don't suppose anyone thought of emerging technologies when the rules were written.

It is a "250 W" pedelec (at least the French one is), the directive only says "maximum 48 V" then it goes into much detail about disposing of old batteries while respecting the environment. But how the electricity is produced I think they must have gotten around that otherwise la poste wouldn't be on board the French project - they need to reduce their emissions, it is in their contract with the state.

 

[Danidl]

It is a "250 W" pedelec (at least the French one is), the directive only says "maximum 48 V" then it goes into much detail about disposing of old batteries while respecting the environment. But how the electricity is produced I think they must have gotten around that otherwise la poste wouldn't be on board the French project - they need to reduce their emissions, it is in their contract with the state.

I don't see that there is any conflict with the current directive which states an auxiliary electric power of 250w. There is no mention of how the electric energy is deposited in the motor. There is no limitations on the size of electrical batteries ...Within reason. I. had thought about the advantages of sticking a Honda generator on a trailer. It would be legal, but obnoxious.


I am sure that the authorities in many major cities would be delighted to see more and more non polluting machines, limited to 25 km HR on their streets. If the numbers rose to a level at which they were adversely affecting revenue, they would come up with some taxing mechanism

 

[flecc]

I don't see that there is any conflict with the current directive which states an auxiliary electric power of 250w. There is no mention of how the electric energy is deposited in the motor.

One clash I know of is in the label that all pedelecs are supposed to have in the UK, which in some forms must state the battery voltage. There's also the BS1727 specifications for motor and battery testing for compliance as an EAPC.

I. had thought about the advantages of sticking a Honda generator on a trailer. It would be legal, but obnoxious.

We have an obscure law that forbids manufacturing on the highway. Presumably that can include making electricity. This law caused problems when readymix concrete trucks were introduced many years ago.
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[Danidl]

One clash I know of is in the label that all pedelecs are supposed to have in the UK, which in some forms must state the battery voltage. There's also the BS1727 specifications for motor and battery testing for compliance as an EAPC.



We have an obscure law that forbids manufacturing on the highway. Presumably that can include making electricity. This law caused problems when readymix concrete trucks were introduced many years ago.
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Ok the first objection can be countered. These hydrogen electric hybrids have a hydrogen cylinder, connected to a fuel cell which produces the electricity, probably has some voltage changing circuits and then a 60whr liion battery. I presume that this is needed to 1. Provide current boost buffer as needed and 2. To initiate fuel cell operation. The cell needs to be heated before conversion commences but can self heat during operation.
So that part of the regulation is satisfied.

The second one about manufacture is new to me.... But is conversation of energy manufacturing? One might argue that converting sand, gravel , cement water into concrete is manufacture....

 

[Artov]

I would have thought that the only game changer for e-bikes is drastic weight reduction.

A hydrogen store and fuel cell will certainly not deliver on that score! It would provide a large increase in range and offer fast refuelling. A trade off as ever, at least with current technology.

 

[Danidl]

Thanks,that's more pressure than I'd anticipated. Hopefully the hydrate recovery will be adequate, it's tended to be the problem very often, like the promised number of charges for NiMh cells which rarely live up to the claims.
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The 20bar refers to the charging cycle of forcing the hydrogen into the hydrates
The gas is released at a more reasonable 2 bar. I assume that the bottle must withstand the 20bar. But lightweight aluminium bottles eg those used for refilling car air conditioner s would be suitable



H

 

[flecc]

I had thought about the advantages of sticking a Honda generator on a trailer. It would be legal, but obnoxious.

If it was charging the one ebike battery in use this could be ruled illegal, on the basis that the generator current could be passed straight through to the bike motor. That would make it petrol-electric drive, so a motor vehicle.
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[Danidl]

I would have thought that the only game changer for e-bikes is drastic weight reduction.

Not sure I agree. The ability to travel 100 / 150 miles with full assistance would be the game changer , particularly if the recharging is very quick or the device carries enough energy to cover the distance. The weight of the bike is of less concern except to a club racing cyclist. I have a dream of cycling the 100 miles from the roscoff ferry to a destination in middle Brittany, over the mountain. distances I could achieve in my youth, .

 

[Woosh]

you can get about 70-80 miles with the 13AH battery on the Karoo. Add a second battery, 15AH, on the rear rack using off the shelf parts, you can extend the range to 200 miles. Recharge one or both while you rest.
There are a few tiny diesel engines that may be converted to generators:

 

[flecc]

The ability to travel 100 / 150 miles with full assistance would be the game changer ,

Only for a very few.

For most that means at least 7 to 10 hours riding on a pedelec with a 15 mph assist limit, since that's the best average they achieve. Many in here only manage around 12 mph average.

I can't see that many hours riding in a day being popular.
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[Benjahmin]

Too right chap, my nether regions are well complaining after a couple of hours continuous.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Such distances are doable on a trike or velomobile where you are comfortably seated and where speed on the flat and downhill is higher because of less air resistance. There is also plenty of room to attach fuel cell and canisters.

 

[flecc]

Such distances are doable on a trike or velomobile where you are comfortably seated and where speed on the flat and downhill is higher because of less air resistance. There is also plenty of room to attach fuel cell and canisters.

True, the one built by a young Austrian a few years ago was a recumbent trike, the hydrogen tank alongside the rear wheel. His stated range was 56 miles, but his tank was only at 1000 lbs/sq/in.

A higher pressure tank would have enabled over 100 miles.
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[Danidl]

Too right chap, my nether regions are well complaining after a couple of hours continuous.

True. But 40 years ago I used to hit those distances and durations on a touring bike 10 speed, panniers etc and travelling from youth hostel to youth hostel. In one near Paris, I met with a group of Germans who had cycled from Berlin in 10 days. I n those days before the wall came down there was a single concession road out of west Berlin and they would have been been forbidden to deviate or to make other than comfort stops.