Hydrogen Powered bikes

[Izzyekerslike]

The next big thing?

 

[soundwave]

it has a bosch motor with a white sticker over the name and a big blue battery wonder how they got that to work pmsl.

 

[anotherkiwi]

That looks like a Bafang Max motor.

 

[soundwave]

 

[flecc]

They're a bit late. Aprilia made the first one in 2001 and it looked good too for that era. It could never have gone to market then sadly, no convenient hydrogen supplies, still a bugbear now. Link

US e-bike maker Zap were hard on their heels with one, also in 2001.

A private Austrian guy made a recumbent trike one about 2007 which had a 56 mile range. It was featured in A to B magazine.

The French had one in 2015 too. Link
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[Izzyekerslike]

Don't dismiss it so easily... This is the Linde Group 64000 employees and €27445 BILLION in assets.

The Linde Group
Linde AG

Type
Aktiengesellschaft
Traded as FWB: LIN
Industry Chemicals
Founded 1879; 138 years ago
Founder Carl von Linde
Headquarters Munich, Germany
Key people
Aldo Belloni (President and CEO), Wolfgang Reitzle (Chairman of the supervisory board)
Products Industrial gas production, alkene, natural gas and air separationplant engineering, logistics services
Revenue

€17.944 billion (2015)[1]
Operating income

€4.131 billion (2015)[1]
Profit

€1.149 billion (2015)[1]
Total assets

€27.445 billion (2015)[1]
Total equity

€15.449 billion (2015)[1]
Number of employees

64,538 (2015)[1]
Website www.linde.com

Linde Gas, Hamburg-Wilhelmsburg
The Linde Group, registered as Linde AG (FWB: LIN), is a German multinational chemical company founded in 1879. It is the world's largest industrial gas company by market share as well as revenue. Linde shares are traded on all the German stock exchanges and also in Zürich, and the Linde share price is included in the DAX 30 index. The group is headquartered in Munich, Bavaria, Germany.

The Linde Group has over 600 affiliated companies in more than 100 countries,[2] with customers in the industrial, retail, trade, science, research and public sectors.

In September 2006 the company acquired its UK based competitor The BOC Group, and subsequently disposed of its non-gas interests. Linde's former materials handling business was rebranded as KION Group in September 2006 and sold in November 2006 to KKR and Goldman Sachs for €4bn. In March 2007 the BOC Edwards semiconductor equipment business was sold to CCMP Capital for €685m.[3]

Linde's revenue in 2015 were €17.9 billion, with 64,500 employees.[4]

Following the BOC acquisition, The Linde Group has become the world's largest industrial gas company. In 2005, Linde AG and BOC together had 21% of the world's market in industrial gases followed by Air Liquide with 19%, Praxair with 13%, Air Products & Chemicals with 10%, Taiyo Nippon Sanso Corporation with 4%, Airgas with 3% and Messer Group with 1%.[5]

 

[Izzyekerslike]

Seems like it's already in production
http://www.irunonhydrogen.com/#at-a-glance

 

[soundwave]

but none has ever gone in to production so you can buy them since 2000 when they first showed up.

and yet in 2017 we have electric cars that can do 300 miles in range tells you something its never going to happen

 

[soundwave]

 

[flecc]

Don't dismiss it so easily... This is the Linde Group 64000 employees and €27445 BILLION in assets.

I'm not dismissing it, I merely said they weren't first.

They've all worked fine and had the potential, but no-one has cracked the hydrogen supply problem yet. Electricity to charge battery pedelecs is everywhere, but hydrogen?

The Toyota Mirai hydrogen car is also a very good working proposition, but with just two filling stations in the whole of the UK it can't really take off.

If Linde can create a hydrogen supply network their pedelec could be a winner, but that will take some doing, given one of the world's largest car makers can't achieve it.
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[anotherkiwi]

The French version from down the road has tackled the filling up issue by selling only to la poste. I imagine that Air Liquide will be setting up mini filling stations in the post offices that are equipped with the bike. Will they go on to make those filling stations open to the public?

 

[KeithMac]

They supply a refilling tank, you refill at home.

It's a heavy beast though, 23 1/2 kg!.

 

[flecc]

They supply a refilling tank, you refill at home.

It's a heavy beast though, 23 1/2 kg!.

Yes, that's the problem , the need to have at least 1000 lbs per square inch pressure for the supply, preferably more. That means a lot of weight and a lot of potential danger.

Compare that heavy container system with the convenience of charging a battery from one's home electricity supply.
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[mike killay]

Yes, that's the problem , the need to have at least 1000 lbs per square inch pressure for the supply, preferably more. That means a lot of weight and a lot of potential danger.

Compare that heavy container system with the convenience of charging a battery from one's home electricity supply.
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I cannot see that even getting off the ground. The danger is huge.
But I seem to remember reading about a method that absorbed hydrogen rather than keeping it under pressure.

 

[flecc]

But I seem to remember reading about a method that absorbed hydrogen rather than keeping it under pressure.

That's using hydrates, typically rare earths that absorb hydrogen, and that's what NiMh battery cells use to hold hydrogen in their charged state. This isn't practical for fuel cell supplies though since the volume needed is so large. Hydrogen being light takes up a lot of space for a given weight, hence the need for very high pressures to reduce the gas volume into a liquid.
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[Danidl]

That's using hydrates, typically rare earths that absorb hydrogen, and that's what NiMh battery cells use to hold hydrogen in their charged state. This isn't practical for fuel cell supplies though since the volume needed is so large. Hydrogen being light takes up a lot of space for a given weight, hence the need for very high pressures to reduce the gas volume into a liquid.
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h

Yes there's are hydrates which have the capacity to adsorb significant quantise of hydrogen at low pressure. Pregma industry in France sell them and are part of the consortium building electric hydrogen bikes for the French post office. However the pressure is very low and safe and the quantities of hydrogen stored compare very favourable with the traditional high pressure cylinders. Cost is the problem. Rare earths are rare . There is a hope that suitably modified carbon nanotubes or similar may able to replicate this adsorbion

 

[flecc]

However the pressure is very low and safe and the quantities of hydrogen stored compare very favourable with the traditional high pressure cylinders.

This is the claim I find questionable though. At low pressure the hydrogen gas volume will be much greater than at very high pressure. Then add the volume of the rare earths or other hydrate and the size comparison is going to be unfavourable, even after accounting for pressure tank thickness.

I don't know what tank pressures these pedelecs are using, but the car makers like Honda and Toyota are using 5000 to 10,000 lbs/sq/in.
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[Woosh]

it may work for large users like the post office where they can share the same refueling installation. For individual customers interested in a quick recharge, it would be quicker and cheaper to buy a spare battery.

 

[Danidl]

This is the claim I find questionable though. At low pressure the hydrogen gas volume will be much greater than at very high pressure. Then add the volume of the rare earths or other hydrate and the size comparison is going to be unfavourable, even after accounting for pressure tank thickness.

I don't know what tank pressures these pedelecs are using, but the car makers like Honda and Toyota are using 5000 to 10,000 lbs/sq/in.
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That is what I would have thought at first also. But the recipe they have caused quite strong binding of the molecular hydrogen with the rare earth .compounds. their product at 5kg gross stores 1500whhr or 500 normalised litres of hydrogen at a pressure of 2megapascal (20bar.). Price is the unknown. See pregma ....

 

[flecc]

That is what I would have thought at first also. But the recipe they have caused quite strong binding of the molecular hydrogen with the rare earth .compounds. their product at 5kg gross stores 1500whhr or 500 normalised litres of hydrogen at a pressure of 2megapascal (20bar.). Price is the unknown. See pregma ....

Thanks,that's more pressure than I'd anticipated. Hopefully the hydrate recovery will be adequate, it's tended to be the problem very often, like the promised number of charges for NiMh cells which rarely live up to the claims.
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