Hub or Mid Drive? Any views?

[Wisper Bikes]

We are continuing to visit our fantastic Wisper dealers all over the country demonstrating the new MID drive and HUB drive Wisper Wayfarers, collecting orders for delivery in February/March.

As far as we can ascertain we seem to be the only company selling almost exactly the same bike with a choice of either HUB or MID drive motors. Apart from the motors only the frame molding around the motor or BB are different. (Ignore the derailure!)

Wayfarer Mid Drive, Crossbar, Adventure Spec (thanks Tony!!)


Wayfarer Hub Drive, Crossbar, Adventure spec.


The question is which is the better bike?

We have now visited almost half our dealers and a very clear split between the two drive systems is emerging.

I should say that our dealers are reluctant to try the HUB drive as they assume that MID motors are always better, however Jeremy our Sales Manager is politely insisting they try both.

I should also say that the demo Mid Motor is only producing 75Nm, the same as the Bosch CX or Shimano E8000, so not at the full production model power. The Hub motor on the other hand is up to its full 50Nm, so a little more powerful, the equivalent of about 100Nm when compared to a MID drive.

When the bikes are tested, one immediately after the other Wisper Dealers are ordering 60% HUB drive against 40% MID drive.

Why?

1. Price , £1,699 for the hub drive against £2,199 for the mid drive is bound to make a difference.
2. Balance, with the battery ahead of the chain drive and the motor behind, the balance of the HUB drive bike is superior to the Mid motor version.
3. Performance, the 50Nm hub bike is more powerful than the 75Nm mid motor bike, however this will change.

For the bike rider there is another advantage of HUB over MID drive

4. Running and service costs are lower on the HUB bike than the MID drive bike as chains and rear sprockets often need changing every 1000 miles or so.

So why do people often choose MID drive bikes over HUB drive?

1. Hill climbing, MID drive bikes are a little better at hill climbing as the assistance is fed through the bike's gears. So better if the rider lives or rides in very hilly areas.
2. Punctures, It's easier to drop the rear wheel from the MID motor bike.
3. Trendy, Bosch and Shimano are very active and spend fortunes trying to persuade riders that MID drives are the better option.

Our conclusion is that there are good and compelling reasons reasons to buy either system depending on circumstances, but when tested side by side out HUB drive seems to be 50% more popular than our Mid drive bikes.

Strange but true!!?

All the best, David

 

[KirstinS]

Intersting stuff David

I can't help but think that the extra 500 quid makes a really big difference to most. That's a chunky old increase on 1700 (not saying its a bad price just that for many buyers it simply takes it out of range)

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I agree Kirstin, price is probably the reason but I was surprised, I expected the numbers to be the other way around or at leat 50/50. The point that's intrigued me the most is the reluctance of the dealers to even try the Hub drive version. But when they try it they buy it.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

The question is which is the better bike?

The common opinion seems to be that mid drives are best for mountain bikes and hills and hub drives best for typical road and commuting use.

As to which is better - it all depends on how the owner intends to use the ebike and their expectations. We often see the question asked by newcomers on here looking for their first ebike and the general advice is "tell us what you want to use it for, your weight and health, and your expectations".

 

[Amoto65]

I have both David, a Wisper 905se and a Carrera Crossfuse and I live in the Peak District and to be honest I am not sure there is much difference as they have both performed equally well. After having a heart attack in April I only used the 905 as I was told to take it easy but now I am back on the Crossfuse and my wife is using the 905. I would say though that I am very tempted by your new Hub Wayfarer having experienced the reliability of the 905, Will there be much difference between the 2 production models regarding power (Nm)? Cheers Steve.

 

[vfr400]

I think that the companies pushing mid drives are doing it from a motive for profit. Also, false logic persuades people that the crank drive should be more efficient because you can use gears to keep it spinning at optimum RPM, but that's a fallacy that's been exposed by actual tests. It would be interesting to test the two Wispers on the same ride by the same rider in the same conditions to see what the difference in consumption is. I'll put my money on the Hub motor winning any day.

A mid drive can't hold a light to a hub-motor for normal utility and leisure cycling.

People get very mixed up about what makes a bike nice to ride. They try a cheap Chinese one with a speed control controller that has a 2 sec delay after pedalling and runs on for 2 secs afterwards, then they try a Bosch and declare Bosch the winner. If you were to swap the control systems on each bike, you'd get the opposite answer.

A crank-drive is necessary when you have extreme hills and/or, you're heavy.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I think it is great you can offer both, that puts you in an interesting position vis à vis the competition. More choice is a good thing, covering two price points as well you can't go wrong.

I have both. Using them within the spirit of the law:
- the mid drive is staying in my round town hack upright, trailer towing and >10% gradients are what it is good at. Speed isn't what I am after. Chain being changed at +4750 km.
- the hub drive is in the trike which I ride faster than cut off on the flat most of the time anyway. It is kinder on the battery so a better choice for long range travel. The trike has Rohloff OEM dropouts so no torque arms required which makes tyre changing a non issue.

If you step away from legal use the GSM mid drive would be the motor to put on the trike with a big chainwheel and a few more Volts and Amps. On the flat it would assist to 45-50 km/h no problem.

I run both motors slightly overvolted and with a couple more controller Amps, speed is however limited to the legal maximum (27 km/h on the controller because bigger tyres). Both motors "breath" more easily as if they are closer to their advertised 80% efficiency, the GSM is much less noisy at 44v than at 36v for example.

 

[Woosh]

Our conclusion is that there are good and compelling reasons reasons to buy either system depending on circumstances, but when tested side by side out HUB drive seems to be 50% more popular than our Mid drive bikes.

Strange but true!!?

I think you have already answered your own question but from a trader's point of view, selling 2 bikes is usually better than one, and as the demand/price curve has typically the shape of a bell, a mid priced bike is guaranteed to be more popular than those at either ends.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I have both David, a Wisper 905se and a Carrera Crossfuse and I live in the Peak District and to be honest I am not sure there is much difference as they have both performed equally well. After having a heart attack in April I only used the 905 as I was told to take it easy but now I am back on the Crossfuse and my wife is using the 905. I would say though that I am very tempted by your new Hub Wayfarer having experienced the reliability of the 905, Will there be much difference between the 2 production models regarding power (Nm)? Cheers Steve.

Cheers Steve!

They are the same in terms of power the 50Nm Hub drive packs the same punch as the 100Nm Hub drive.
All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I think it is great you can offer both, that puts you in an interesting position vis à vis the competition. More choice is a good thing, covering two price points as well you can't go wrong.

I have both. Using them within the spirit of the law:
- the mid drive is staying in my round town hack upright, trailer towing and >10% gradients are what it is good at. Speed isn't what I am after. Chain being changed at +4750 km.
- the hub drive is in the trike which I ride faster than cut off on the flat most of the time anyway. It is kinder on the battery so a better choice for long range travel. The trike has Rohloff OEM dropouts so no torque arms required which makes tyre changing a non issue.

If you step away from legal use the GSM mid drive would be the motor to put on the trike with a big chainwheel and a few more Volts and Amps. On the flat it would assist to 45-50 km/h no problem.

I run both motors slightly overvolted and with a couple more controller Amps, speed is however limited to the legal maximum (27 km/h on the controller because bigger tyres). Both motors "breath" more easily as if they are closer to their advertised 80% efficiency, the GSM is much less noisy at 44v than at 36v for example.

Thanks that’s all very interesting, the Wayfarers both run 43V systems and the difference between 36V and 43V is huge, more power but less stress on the system. It just feels more “comfortable”.

 

[flecc]

Both great bikes, but the hub motor for me.

But after six responses I can't believe no-one has noticed the top photo caption is wrong!

The top model is the mid motor, not also a hub motor.
.

 

[soundwave]

cant i have both and one on the front as well

 

[Benjahmin]

Both bikes look solid and bussiness like - nice.
Must admit I'm not a fan of these rear racks with the floaty look though.
For me it would be the hub. I'm with vfr in that, living in west Wales, I know only too well that this 'hubs aren't good on hills' thing is a fallacy.
Interesting that you've gone 43v, is the battery user extractable for end of life re-cell?

 

[Deleted member 25121]

They are the same in terms of power the 50Nm Hub drive packs the same punch as the 100Nm Hub drive.

Interesting, how are you measuring "punch"?

 

[Nealh]

Aesthetics look alone for me is a hub drive bike, I have never really taken to the bulkier mid drive look, loving the great Blue gunmetal colour .
What is the battery capacity and cells used David ?
Is the hub AKM128c ?

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Both great bikes, but the hub motor for me.

But after six responses I can't believe no-one has noticed the top photo caption is wrong!

The top model is the mid motor, not also a hub motor.
.

Ooops!

Thanks Tony!

All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Aesthetics look alone for me is a hub drive bike, I have never really taken to the bulkier mid drive look, loving the great Blue gunmetal colour .
What is the battery capacity and cells used David ?
Is the hub AKM128c ?

Thanks Neal, I’m with you, I far prefer the look and balance of the hub drive bike.

the standard battery is 450Wh DLG with an upgrade option to 700Wh Samsung for the more intrepid explorers!

The motor is a new model from Shengli, it’s great!

All the best, David

 

[soundwave]

if you can do something like that under 3k you will fkn smash it id even buy one

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Interesting, how are you measuring "punch"?

Its not scientific ebiker99, although it should be!! The power is the same but because of where the torque is measured 50Nm hub is the same roughly as 100Nm centre. All the best, David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

View attachment 33359

if you can do something like that under 3k you will fkn smash it id even buy one

I can do this for under £3k, full carbon. E8000.



All the best, David