How to find range?

[Nass]

the way marketing people say that their TSDZ2 is 250Wor 350W or 500W or even 750W is very confusing. Tongsheng makes the same motor for two voltages: 36V and 48V. The controller is programmable, It is factory set at 16A but can be changed.
36V at 16A = 576W maximum
48V at 16A = 768W maximum
The motor is labelled 250W for road legal kits.
I would suggest you get a road legal 48V TSDZ2.

48V 16A is a good trade off between hill climbing ability, stress on the motor and stress on your battery.

How to find range?

You can use the motor simulator here:
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

You want to look at the load curve versus speed. You can set your weight and gradient, the math is done for you.

For example, this is a 5% gradient:

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=false&motor=MBPM&axis=mph&grade=5

The load chart gives (approximately) maximum speed at 18mh with the 48V TSDZ2 (768W battery power) and 15mph with the 36V TSDZ2 (576W battery power).
The battery consumption per mile is battery power / speed.
Climbing a hill at 18mph, battery consumption is 40WH-42WH per mile,

this is a chart for flat road:
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=false&motor=MBPM&axis=mph&grade=0

the 48V TSDZ2 maximum speed is 28 miles, battery consumption is 27WH per mile.
The 36V TSDZ2 maximum speed is 23mph, battery consumption is 25WH per mile.

The above examples assume the motor is derestricteed.
If the motor is restricted to road legal, the battery consumption at 15mph is the same for both 36V and 48V, 12WH per mile.

Now the range.

The maximum range is battery capacity in WH / battery consumption per mile.
If you have a 48V TSDZ2 kit with 12AH battery, maximum range is about 576WH/12WH/m = 48 miles.
However, it is unpleasant to ride assisted when the remaining battery capacity is below 20%, the practical range is 20% less than the maximum range, about 40 miles.

My first ever Ebike and to save money I have decided to convert my Mountain bike. Your post has answered some of my questions, thanks for that.
Someone has put a link of a uk seller and I am planning to buy a TSDZ2 of them. I am going to build my own battery pack with Samsung 25R. 14S 7P 57v 17.5ah. Is that combination any good?

 

[Nass]

http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?cdkit#tsdz2

Thanks for the link, I was trying to find a uk seller. Have looked at there prices and even though a bit more expensive than eBay I still rather buy it of smaller uk based company. Anyone has any experience dealing with this company? Any feedback will be great!!

 

[sjpt]

You'll find lots of good feedback for Woosh on this site. We have a kit from them for our tandem; excellent pre-sales advice, they made sure all the cables were right length for the tandem as they prepared the kit, and helpful post-sales support on a couple of queries.

 

[Nass]

You'll find lots of good feedback for Woosh on this site. We have a kit from them for our tandem; excellent pre-sales advice, they made sure all the cables were right length for the tandem as they prepared the kit, and helpful post-sales support on a couple of queries.

Thanks. I am new to this world of forum and usually can’t find the answer for my questions. Advice goes a long way and you don’t get them in Alibaba!!.

 

[gw8izr]

If it helps with another data point, my 48 V nominal 250 W mid drive motor purchased in the UK coupled to a 17 Ah battery drags my ass round for 60 miles on a full charge.

It’s plenty powerful enough for North Wales hills ....

 

[Nealh]

My first ever Ebike and to save money I have decided to convert my Mountain bike. Your post has answered some of my questions, thanks for that.
Someone has put a link of a uk seller and I am planning to buy a TSDZ2 of them. I am going to build my own battery pack with Samsung 25R. 14S 7P 57v 17.5ah. Is that combination any good?

That will be one v.large (98 cell) weighty battery (about 10.5 - 11lbs), you will need a rear rack with good flat area to carry it.
I don't understand the logic of 25r for a low powered set up, 25r 25a rated so 175a rated pack, over kill for a mid drive that pulls about 15a max.
LG Mj1 or M36 in 13s 5p (65 cells) will be 17.5ah or 840wh and about 4 - 4.5lbs lighter.

 

[Nass]

That will be one v.large (98 cell) weighty battery (about 10.5 - 11lbs), you will need a rear rack with good flat area to carry it.
I don't understand the logic of 25r for a low powered set up, 25r 25a rated so 175a rated pack, over kill for a mid drive that pulls about 15a max.
LG Mj1 or M36 in 13s 5p (65 cells) will be 17.5ah or 840wh and about 4 - 4.5lbs lighter.

I have limited understanding when it comes to electronic and battery. Sheffield has hardly any flat roads, so I thought bigger battery is better. I haven’t thought about size, specially as I got down hill bike, which I was going to experiment on it.

 

[Nealh]

You need to stand back and think of your actual requirements a lot more before jumping in feet first.

A few Q,s.
How will any battery be carried on the bike ?
How far do you want to ride in a day ?
Show us a pic of the bike ?
How much ascent in meter's or feet do you think you will climb in a typical ride ?
How fit are you/your riding stamina ?

 

[Nealh]

The tdsz is 48v so a 13s battery will be fine .

 

[Nass]

You need to stand back and think of your actual requirements a lot more before jumping in feet first.

A few Q,s.
How will any battery be carried on the bike ?
How far do you want to ride in a day ?
Show us a pic of the bike ?
How much ascent in meter's or feet do you think you will climb in a typical ride ?
How fit are you/your riding stamina ?

Haven’t used a bike for 25year and over55 year old, so fitness. Will Use the bike for commuting and shopping, trying not use the car. Some road are pretty steep in Sheffield, no idea about ascent in meter. My bike is not the right bike as I have to Mount the battery like a handlebar basket temporary to see if the idea does works for me, than I would buy a suitable bike.
I think I have miscalculated the battery. How about this one (14S 5P 50V 17.5ah 3.3 kg) compare to your suggestion? Still overkill?

 

[sjpt]

If the bike is just for commuting and around Sheffield a smaller battery would be fine (you don't say where from and to the commute would be ... makes a big difference). If you thought you might go for a spin to the peaks and back then you might justify a really big battery like that.

 

[Andy McNish]

Questioning on range over the years in this forum has resulted in an average of 12 Wh per mile, so your 360 Wh gives an average of 30 miles for a high proportion of riders on average e-bikes.

Weaker riders use more, typically in the 15 to 20 Wh area, while just a very few riders who are either strong or masochistic use as little as 5 Wh per mile.

The motor systems on a few e-bikes have been greedy, one that was popular a few years ago ate 24 Wh per mile from its 360 Wh battery, thus giving only 15 miles range for the majority of owners.
.

I just got my first year service stats on my Cube Touring with Bosch ALP system.
3000km
53% Tour (which will be my commute) , 43% Eco (my wandering down rivers and canals at weekends).
I hardly ever use Sport or Turbo.

Average of 8.3 Watt Hours per mile (so that is an average 60 mile range in real world use with my 500WH battery).

 

[flecc]

I just got my first year service stats on my Cube Touring with Bosch ALP system.
3000km
53% Tour (which will be my commute) , 43% Eco (my wandering down rivers and canals at weekends).
I hardly ever use Sport or Turbo.

Average of 8.3 Watt Hours per mile (so that is an average 60 mile range in real world use with my 500WH battery).

Battery evolution is increasing range now. Most of the accumulated data is from the earlier years when most batteries were at or often well below 360 Wh capacity. Then we often had 24 volt popular models with as little as 156 Wh and overall battery life was much shorter.

They were less good at handling common discharge rates and their Eco modes were often very weak so there was more use of higher power modes. I suspect a survey amongst us now would reduce the former 12 Wh per mile average to 10 or maybe even 9.5 Wh per mile.

However, this is primarily an e-bike enthusiasts forum and the average for the general public could be rather higher. And many like me live in very hilly areas with no level canal paths or river flood plains to ride on, pushing up the average.
.

 

[gw8izr]

And many like me live in very hilly areas with no level canal paths or river flood plains to ride on, pushing up the average.
.

And perhaps someone like me who sometimes hit turbo and fly up the hills like I did 40 years ago with a stupid grin on my face

 

[Nass]

If the bike is just for commuting and around Sheffield a smaller battery would be fine (you don't say where from and to the commute would be ... makes a big difference). If you thought you might go for a spin to the peaks and back then you might justify a really big battery like that.

Well spotted!!, peak is one of the reason I decided to build my own battery!. Had a communication with http://www.wooshbikes.co.uk/ but they don’t want to sale it with out battery, but they have answered my questions.

 

[Andy McNish]

Actually I checked again as I now have the actual printout.

Cube 1 year review

It was 5.3WH/mile (giving an average real world range of c.100 miles) but there is an enormous BUT in that.
It's that I cycled 850 out of the 1800 miles the Cube did without any assist turned on at all

That shows how efficient a proper zero resist motor can be in extending range but is also an artefact of the particular way in which I use my Cube which (outside the 420 commuting miles which I did in Tour mode) is very much pottering around on weekends, not in a rush, and just using the battery to maintain my heart rate at or below 150bpm or perhaps for some extra power to get through sections of sand, mud or a rutted farmtrack. This means almost all my non-commuting use is in Eco or with the motor turned off.

Naturally this gives me a stupid 'real world use' range but it isn't what people think of as properly representative of an e-bike's range.

 

[D C]

many like me live in very hilly areas with no level canal paths or river flood plains to ride on, pushing up the average.

That's a good point, it's not just distance that affects things.
I've just done two 12 mile back to back rides, one on relatively flat ground and one with a lot of height gain, both using Eco only and temperature around 4 c using 500wh battery.
flatish ride used 14% and hilly ride used 23% even with lots of downhills without power.
Dave.