How legal is a kit which can be set up to exceed 250W and 15.5mph.

[flecc]

I think two motors is not legal for an EAPC even if the sum of their rated powers is <250w

No, two are not illegal, there have been examples, including the SRAM Sparc long ago which had two motors in one hub and currently the Heinzmann two 125W hubs example that @saneagle mentions. The mention of motor in the law covers any provision that in total is 250 Watt rated by the manufacturer.
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[Baz the balloon man]

thats odd I spotted a lime bike in the wild last week when i found it parked up next to mine, took a quick once over and its rear mud guard shell/body must have grabbed my attention as if fitted with 2x hub motors i missed that completely?? And i think i would have spotted something of that magnitude..

not my pic - lifted from google..

 

[saneagle]

thats odd I spotted a lime bike in the wild last week when i found it parked up next to mine, took a quick once over and its rear mud guard shell/body must have grabbed my attention as if fitted with 2x hub motors i missed that completely?? And i think i would have spotted something of that magnitude..

not my pic - lifted from google..

Are you sure there's a motor on the back? It looks like hub gears and hub brake on the back to me.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

I think two motors is not legal for an EAPC even if the sum of their rated powers is <250w

I stand corrected (see posts below). I don't know were I got the two motor not allowed thing into my head.

I think two motors is not legal for an EAPC even if the sum of their rated powers is <250w

I stand corrected (see posts below). I don't know were I got the two motor not allowed thing into my head.

Lime bikes in London definitely have Two Bafang hub motors , I googled it and it says lime bikes operate at 250W .

otherwise it would be legal to have 2 x 250W restricted to 15MPH

they must be doing something to rent out the bikes legally as the law must apply to them same as everyone else

 

[soundwave]

my bosh cx motor without the 15mph speed limit is 800w+ an ebike can have a 20 kw 50a motor controller but must cut out at 15.5mph.


problem is this part of the law has not been challenged in court.

one could say the 20kw motor set to unlimited power under 15.5mph is ok.

another could say the fact that you can change the controller setting to more amps and higher speed would be not road legal.

and same could be said for my bike with a 20a controller and dongle its faster than sclass and not road legal but no one cares even when i got the bike 10 years ago.

m8 has had his bafang hd for near five years now and no problem.

m8s shitmano motor hit fan today 5k right off or pay 600 quid for newish motor from Germany plus import fees.

 

[Sturmey]

The european standard EN15194 is as far as I know is not a legal requirement from the riders point of view. But I think if a retailer sells a bike ( or kit) and claims that it complies with the EN15194 (2017) standard, then as far as I can see, the following is suppose to apply.

NEN-EN 15194:2017
4.2.17.1 General
Anti-tampering measures apply to tampering or modifications that general consumers carry out concerning the control unit, drive unit or other parts of power assisting system by using commercially available tools, equipment or parts.
4.2.17.2 Prevention of tampering of the motor
The following anti-tampering requirements shall be taken into account:
a) Anti-tampering relevant parameters indicated below shall only be accessible to the manufacturer or authorized persons and changes of software configuration parameters require programming tools that are not commercially available or security protected:
1) maximum speed with motor assistance (all systems),
2) parameters affecting the maximum vehicle speed limited by design,
3) maximum gear ratio (system with middle motors),
4) maximum motor power (all systems),
5) maximum speed of starting up assistance;
b) Assumable manipulations on the approval relevant configuration shall be prevented or compensated by effective counter measures, i.e. plausibility logics to detect manipulations on sensors;
c) Closed set of components (i.e. operation only with released battery);
d) Protection against opening of relevant components without traces (sealing).

 

[thelarkbox]

Are you sure there's a motor on the back? It looks like hub gears and hub brake on the back to me.

It was a mid drive bike, I peered at both hubs, but the aspect that caught my eye was the composite? body shell over the rear wheel.

 

[saneagle]

Lime bikes in London definitely have Two Bafang hub motors , I googled it and it says lime bikes operate at 250W .

otherwise it would be legal to have 2 x 250W restricted to 15MPH

they must be doing something to rent out the bikes legally as the law must apply to them same as everyone else

According to Google AI, no Lime bikes have two motors. Can you show a photo of one that does?

 

[saneagle]

It was a mid drive bike, I peered at both hubs, but the aspect that caught my eye was the composite? body shell over the rear wheel.

The photo you posted shows a front hub-motor. I've never seen one with a crank-motor. Some have a rear motor, but they're not very common.

 

[thelarkbox]

My bad on the pic, the motor was obscured by the body shell, and i wasnt crawling under it or lifting a hire bike on its back outside the chemists,, I can snap pics of the next one that crosses my path now i know there is interest, we get loads more scooters due to local halls of residence round here, And that bike only piqued my interest due to its proximity to mine. They are pretty common on the rds just not usually left in the local streets this far east.

 

[saneagle]

My bad on the pic, the motor was obscured by the body shell, and i wasnt crawling under it or lifting a hire bike on its back outside the chemists,, I can snap pics of the next one that crosses my path now i know there is interest, we get loads more scooters due to local halls of residence round here, And that bike only piqued my interest due to its proximity to mine. They are pretty common on the rds just not usually left in the local streets this far east.

I've searched extensively. I think this is what people are getting confused about. It has a single rear motor and a front hub-brake. I mistook the front brake for a hub-motor because I've only seen photos which aren't clear until I found this one:

 

[thelarkbox]

Im doubting my recollections now.. I rode away unimpressed with the bike as it looked heavy, the bulky crank obscured by the shell could have been a locking mechanism?? the thing that stood out was the rear over the wheel mudguard and moulded in luggage rack/capacity as a simple but effective useful design - not so clear in either pics.

 

[matthewslack]

Lime bikes in London definitely have Two Bafang hub motors , I googled it and it says lime bikes operate at 250W .

otherwise it would be legal to have 2 x 250W restricted to 15MPH

they must be doing something to rent out the bikes legally as the law must apply to them same as everyone else

Next time you see one get some pictures and a closer look. There are multiple versions, the Gen 4 is the latest, which is said online to have automatic two speed transmission built into the rear hub motor, single speed chain drive from pedals, and drum brakes.

@larkbox' picture has cable discs and a rather large front hub flange. Not obvious what is going on there.

I struggle to believe a business that requires ultra reliable bikes and will be squeezing every penny of profit out of them would fit any superfluous kit, so a second motor makes no sense to me.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Next time you see one get some pictures and a closer look. There are multiple versions, the Gen 4 is the latest, which is said online to have automatic two speed transmission built into the rear hub motor, single speed chain drive from pedals, and drum brakes.

@larkbox' picture has cable discs and a rather large front hub flange. Not obvious what is going on there.

I struggle to believe a business that requires ultra reliable bikes and will be squeezing every penny of profit out of them would fit any superfluous kit, so a second motor makes no sense to me.

Ok will do usually some in my street

 

[Baz the balloon man]

I've searched extensively. I think this is what people are getting confused about. It has a single rear motor and a front hub-brake. I mistook the front brake for a hub-motor because I've only seen photos which aren't clear until I found this one:

Oh so is the front hub brake as Bafang and Lime are stamped into both rear and front hubs.
I think you are correct and the Bafang stamp on the front is not a motor.

That would make more sense however when went across London the other day these heavy bikes where passing me I was riding Giant Prime Hybrid Yamaha mid drive at its top speed on the flat .

I started off riding these and they are fast with plenty of power for a 250W

 

[saneagle]

Oh so is the front hub brake as Bafang and Lime are stamped into both rear and front hubs.
I think you are correct and the Bafang stamp on the front is not a motor.

That would make more sense however when went across London the other day these heavy bikes where passing me I was riding Giant Prime Hybrid Yamaha mid drive at its top speed on the flat .

I started off riding these and they are fast with plenty of power for a 250W

Hub-motors can give a lot more power than a crank-drive. Look at the size of the actual motor (coils, magnets, rotor and stator). They're about two or three times the size of those on a crank-motor. The normal sized ones can handle 1000w from the battery easily. My one is the same size as a Lime Bike's one, and I run it at 48v and 22A, which is 1100w from the battery. My 48v TSDZ02 is like a kids toy by comparison. The hub-motor goes up steep hills easily twice as fast.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Yes I have the 350W YOSE AKM and with the speed limited to 15MPH it’s still a lot faster from stand still although the sticker says it a Bafang 250W

Is it ok to run the 350W off-road on a 48V battery ?

 

[saneagle]

Yes I have the 350W YOSE AKM and with the speed limited to 15MPH it’s still a lot faster from stand still although the sticker says it a Bafang 250W

Is it ok to run the 350W off-road on a 48V battery ?

Motors don't care about voltage. Higher volts just makes them spin faster. It's the combination of amps and volts that gives the power, so if you have a small motor, like AKM 100, you need to keep the current to 15A or lower at 48v, but the larger motors, like yours should be able to handle 22 amps. The downside is that you can lose efficiency on some hills, which can make the motor hot if you go too slow.

It's difficult to be specific because only you know how you ride and what sort of hills you have. Generally, the increase in torque from the 48v gets you up the hill faster, and the faster you go, the higher efficiency, so the loss of efficiency from having a faster motor is more than compensated for by the increase in efficiency due to higher speed.

When I was experimenting with two motors, I couldn't understand how two motors together could climb the same hill with less watt-hours consumed than a single motor. It was because the single motor was struggling at low speed and therefore low efficiency, while as the extra power from the two motors could keep them spinning in their efficient zone.