How difficult it is to detach, open and grease panasonic crank motor?

flecc · Sep 30, 2012

It is a major job since you need to remove the whole unit from the bike to complete it, and you need the instructions from my Panasonic support site.

Start by going to this OLD UNIT section on this link. Follow the instructions for splitting the crankcase and drawing the halves a little apart. Then jump to the NEW UNIT details on this link to see a photo of the large nylon wheel and motor shaft and you'll see that it will be easy to apply grease without fully separating the crankcase halves. Don't use excessive grease, large amounts are not necessary. A general purpose high temperature grease will be suitable.

Then reverse the procedure to reassemble and refit the unit. To remove the motor cowlings on a Kalkhoff the instructions on this link may help, though they are for the Agattu model.
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eddieo · Sep 30, 2012

do you have a version of sales of goods act in France? As in the UK you would be covered under sales of goods act as it is the LAW that goods must be "fit for purpose" & "of merchantable quality" for 6 years....

normally a standard letter available on internet with your details added, sent registered mail, giving 14 days is enough to galvanise their thought processes....most just take the warranty as law IT IS NOT, it means little and consumer rights far more robust....

do you have a citizens advice bureau, they should advise on consumer rights

Kudoscycles · Sep 30, 2012

eddieo said:
do you have a version of sales of goods act in France? As in the UK you would be covered under sales of goods act as it is the LAW that goods must be "fit for purpose" & "of merchantable quality" for 6 years....

normally a standard letter available on internet with your details added, sent registered mail, giving 14 days is enough to galvanise their thought processes....most just take the warranty as law IT IS NOT, it means little and consumer rights far more robust....

do you have a citizens advice bureau, they should advise on consumer rights

Eddie,sorry that is just not true but it is an often misunderstood part of this law.
The 6 year law states that a consumer can approach a retailer with a claim up to 6 years from the date of sale(5 years in Scotland). This does not mean that every product should last 6 years and in many cases it would be unreasonable to expect it,it is simply the legal cutoff date upon which a claim against an original manufacturing fault can be submitted.
Under the law the life of the product is subject to type,usage,'wear and tear',original purchase price and claims made by the seller. Because this law is subject to so much interpretation the government has issued the following guidelines
Goods have to be of a satisfactory quality if they reach the life and standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory,taking into account the purchase price and any description.
It is possible that a product with a warranty of 12 months may be refused a claim after 1 day if a reasonable person would consider that is the lifespan of the product considering the usage of the product- this is best described by one of my rally products. If you buy a steering rack that is destroyed by leaping 15 foot into the air and bought it only 7 days ago,you cannot expect any warranty. However if you used that same steering rack and used it only for street use then it could be expected to last for 12 months or maybe longer. But note any claim is against an original manufacturing fault not a fault which has developed due to usage,that is a very difficult criteria to satisfy.
This law is a 'can of worms' which really doesn't help the consumer or the retailer. It is about to be replaced by an EC law which will give 6 months claim back, in the first 6 months the retailer has to prove the fault is not a manufacturing fault,after 6 months it is the responsibility of the consumer to prove it is a manufacturing fault,that is the current situation in Germany.
Dave
Kudoscycles

eddieo · Sep 30, 2012

sorry but everyone needs to realise a manufacturers warranty means absolutely nothing under consumer law.

anyone I know who have had to go to court have won. as all have had reasonable claims in the first place. most don't get to court as they get settled beforehand, as once retailer realises consumer not a mug they normally listen to reason

I buy a kudos bike - it falls to pieces after 2.2 years - you dont want to know - we go to court - I win - you get bad publicity..i'm sure it would not go that far as I presume you are reasonable......

Kudoscycles · Sep 30, 2012

eddieo said:
sorry but everyone needs to realise a manufacturers warranty means absolutely nothing under consumer law.

anyone I know who have had to go to court have won. as all have had reasonable claims in the first place. most don't get to court as they get settled beforehand, as once retailer realises consumer not a mug they normally listen to reason

I buy a kudos bike - it falls to pieces after 2.2 years - you dont want to know - we go to court - I win - you get bad publicity..i'm sure it would not go that far as I presume you are reasonable......

Eddie,I am not talking about Kudos here I am referring to the law in general. As you say if the customer has a good case then any responsible retailer will settle without resort to the law-I just don't want you to give everyone the impression that they have 6 year warranty,if you read the law that is just not true.
If you abuse a bike and it falls to pieces then you are quite correct the warranty period is irrelevant,the reasonable usage factor comes into play and the reasonable life might be determined as only 1 month,it depends upon reasonable expectancy,in that circumstance the law works against you. If you notice the word reasonable keeps coming into play here but it's such an ambiguous word and open to interpretation by the judge on the day. The warranty period is not irrelevant because that is the period of time that the consumer and retailer have agreed is a reasonable period for the product to be fault free,the judge always takes that into account.
I have to say that Rally Design has never had to defend this law in 40 years of business,but personally I tried to use the law to make a claim on a manufacturing defect that was 12 months outside of warranty,the barristers opinion was not to bother,the law is almost impossible to prove.
Dave
Kudoscycles

Kudoscycles · Sep 30, 2012

vaasa said:
Another possibility would be to write to Kalkhoff (derby cycles) directly and explain the issue. They might understand (especially as my bike is only a month out of warranty). I would even be willing to participate in the costs of the new motor unit (as opposed of bying a new 2000-2500 EUR bike) and they can have my old, still functioning unit for investigation. Some German retailer sold them for around 500 EUR on ebay this spring. Unfortunately they do not seem to be available any more. As during this 2 years I've bought so many accessories for my bike (including a new 18Ah battery this winter), I'm really not willing to buy a new bike for another 2 years.

May be somebody from 50 Cycles can advise me who to contact from Kalkhoff (Derby Cycles) side?

Vaasa,apologise that I may have missed in your posting,but who did you buy the bike from?
Are you saying that a replacement new motor is euro 500?
I cannot speak for Kalkhoff but communicating with big companies such as this is invariably quite difficult.
This is the problem of buying these expensive bikes,the German system seems to be designed around replacing these bikes after 3 years,most are bought on a 3 year lease with a maintenance contract,the high cost of parts on these bikes really compels the consumer to replace the bike every 3 years ,German customers I have spoke to seem to accept this.
However,the big German retailers must have thousands of trade in bikes-what happens to these bikes? Probably crushed. They must have almost no value. My suggestion is to see whether you can buy an ex trade in bike with a dud battery but good motor,you could cannibalise such a bike to keep yours on the road, Now there is a good idea,breakers yard for old e-bikes!!!!!
Dave
Kudoscycles

Kudoscycles · Sep 30, 2012

Vassa,I feel for your situation. Will the retailer give you a good part exchange,especially as that new battery will have some life left in it. The danger is that you throw good money after bad,especially as you admit the bike has had a hard life. Unless you can pick up a cheap new motor,I think I would keep using it until it expires completely and then look around for a cheaper replacement.
What this endorses is asking how much are the cost of replacement batteries and major parts prior to buying the bike. Kudos charges £100.00 for a new motor laced into a 26 inch wheel,new batteries average about £200.00,there is no pressure to change a bike whatever part may fail in the future.
Dave
Kudoscycles

tillson · Oct 1, 2012

This might be totally irrelevant but worth a try.

I had a rubbing / binding noise coming from the area of the motor on my bike and I convinced myself that it was a bearing inside the motor case, particularly as it only happened with the motor switched on. I removed the plastic chain guard to try and improve access / diagnosis and the noise went away. It turned out to be the chain wheel catching very slightly on the chain guard. There is a degree of "float" on the chain wheel on these units and turning the power on /off just caused it to move enough to catch. It might be worth trying the bike with the chain guard removed before pulling the motor apart.

I can't believe that these bikes only have an intended three year life and that there is a big heap of 3+ year old bikes somewhere in The Father Land awaiting extermination. My Kalkhoff is now over four years old and I would say that it has had far more than average use over those four years. The original 10 Ah Panasonic battery still indicates 5 LEDs on the capacity / condition test and I can get 40+ miles out of it. The only slight worries that I have had with the bike have been the rubbing noise mentioned above and a noisy / clunky / slipping hub gear. The gear problem seemed to right itself without intervention from me and has been fine for the last 500 miles. I think it's wrong to suggest that these bikes are only lasting 3 years and to somehow use this doubtful fact to encourage people to buy a bike from the cheaper end of the market.

If I had used a cheap bike to the same extent that I have used my Kalkhoff, I think that I would have got through several of them by now. It just goes to show how valid the, "buy cheap buy twice" statement is. If you are going to be doing a lot of mileage and want to rely on the bike for something like commuting, you may as well spend the cash, buy something of quality, enjoy the quality and not have to spend more money on failed cheap batteries or monkey-metal bits and bobs. The total outlay over a protracted period probably isn't too different.

flecc · Oct 1, 2012

Indeed, these Panasonic units last for many years and are far more reliable than most hub drive setups. The majority of the original version are still running fine at up to 11 years old since their introduction and the later unit is potentially even more reliable.

I can confirm that the recommended retail price for a new unit is €500, but of course that is a complete package with controller, torque sensor, integral bottom bracket etc all inside and new chainwheel and motor sprocket fitted. Obviously no comparison with the price of a hub motor alone, which will complete far less miles than the Panasonic unit normally does before needing major attention.
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eddieo · Oct 1, 2012

if they weren't any good surely there would be loads available for spares. Not my cup of chi but have always thought of them as reliable transport....

Kudoscycles · Oct 1, 2012

eddieo said:
if they weren't any good surely there would be loads available for spares

I respect the quality of a Kalkhoff,have ridden many of these high end German bikes and they are certainly the BMW or Mercedes of the e-bike world. It's really the battery life and cost of replacement that makes them disposable machines,particularly in Germany. Sit in a pavement cafe in Bavaria and every bike,sports or e-bike,looks brand new.
If you look at the economics of the German bike industry. The retail price is set high,say euro 2500,the dealer gets euro 800-1000 profit. He gives away half that profit for a trade in on a 3 year old bike,say euro 500,a replacement battery can be euro 650-800. So at replacement battery time it looks a good deal to get a new bike,usually with a new leasing contract,new maintenance contract. The technology of e-bikes is moving so fast that to a German's technocrat thoughts a 3 year old bike is positively ancient.
They have same attitude to their cars,so a replacement cost of euro 2500 on the bike looks small change to a euro 50000 Mercedes.
What happens to these trade in bikes? You never see secondhand bikes in a German retailer.
Most English people have a different attitude to their bike purchase,they see £2000 plus as a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a bike,even £1000 plus is thought of as extravagant,the euro 650 replacement battery cost is a rip-off. So the dealer just does not have the profit margin to do the generous trade ins,so the 3 year exchange is not possible.
Interesting which system pedelecs members would prefer?
Dave
Kudoscycles

blanche_aline · Oct 1, 2012

Vassa
have you ever considered to post your problem on the german pedelec-forum?
Pedelec-Forum

Maybe there are still some replacement-motors available from Germany or someone there might help you further - they're quite helpfull on that forum and there are also a few people posting in english (and of course getting a response)

eddieo · Oct 1, 2012

maybe a business idea...going around German dealers picking up 2 year old bikes and selling them on here.......Oh! are they RHD?

Scimitar · Oct 1, 2012

eddieo said:
maybe a business idea...going around German dealers picking up 2 year old bikes and selling them on here.......Oh! are they RHD?

The camber shims will need replaced, in that case.
<sucks teeth>
Can't get 'em any more, Guv.

flecc · Oct 1, 2012

eddieo said:
maybe a business idea...going around German dealers picking up 2 year old bikes and selling them on here...

There used to be a big business in selling s/h Japanese motorbikes in the UK. Since the Japanese were always obsessed with having the latest model their s/h bikes were often just a year old and very low mileage.

Problem for high end e-bikes is the replacement battery cost though, the s/h bike has to exceptionally cheap to make buying s/h worthwhile.

How difficult it is to detach, open and grease panasonic crank motor?

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