HMRC gives £700 million IT contract to Amazon.

[Kudoscycles]

HMRC has recently moved its Azure IT cloud contract from a small Manchester SME to Amazon data services,it sent the small company bust.
But it's no wonder that HMRC have an amazingly soft approach to the massive vat fraud committed by on-line sellers on Amazon and e-bay,the recent 'punishment' by HMRC having caught fraud allows the seller to keep his stock,not having to pay retrospective vat,continue trading for 30 days,just to promise he will be a 'good boy' in the future.
Are we happy that Amazon has access to all our data held by HMRC ??
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Are we happy that Amazon has access to all our data held by HMRC ??
KudosDave

I'm certainly not, I don't trust companies in general to keep my data reserved for legitimate purposes and trust large US companies least of all.

The conflict of interest for Amazon is blindingly obvious, the company that sells us everything having access to the whole of our financial information.
.

 

[Woosh]

I wouldn't jump to conclusion.
Datacentred business is / was very small. Its service is to provide storage service, looking after a bunch of servers. I doubt that the contract with HMRC is much more than a few millions £, certainly not in the tens of millions £. The cloud storage market is cut-throat by its nature. You have Rackspace and UKFast in Manchester, both are VERY experienced in that business.
AWS is a solid platform, if Amazon wanted the deal, I can't see any competitors capable of beating it.

 

[PeterL]

I would have thought, racing certainty, that whatever data they have stored will be encrypted and way out of reach of any employee.

 

[Emo Rider]

Putting the proverbial fox in charge of the hen house The common working class taxpayer doesn't have a prayer as they'll have to find the money (tax revenue) somewhere.

 

[Danidl]

HMRC has recently moved its Azure IT cloud contract from a small Manchester SME to Amazon data services,it sent the small company bust.
But it's no wonder that HMRC have an amazingly soft approach to the massive vat fraud committed by on-line sellers on Amazon and e-bay,the recent 'punishment' by HMRC having caught fraud allows the seller to keep his stock,not having to pay retrospective vat,continue trading for 30 days,just to promise he will be a 'good boy' in the future.
Are we happy that Amazon has access to all our data held by HMRC ??
KudosDave

.. I would not be happy with any company headquartered in the USA having any access to my data.

Not wanting to link this thread with Brexit, but it is inevitable...

The EU has a conflicting view to the USA on data rights. The USA chooses to believe , by their legislation, and practices in their courts that they have global jurisdiction. A body like the ECJ and EU can face them down, but US companies, even the likes of Microsoft and Apple have a harder time defending European citizens privacy rights against US DoJ "requests " for data generated and theoretically stored in Europe.

Extending the arguement a little further, I am uncomfortable that many of the data links from Ireland to the rest of the world pass through UK territory. At present I can take some comfort in that the UK is party to EU privacy protocols, but post Brexit will not be, and may choose to listen in , and then share , by means of their prior protocol anything with their American cousins. Now I have nothing worth hiding, but is that the point?

 

[SHAN]

Are we happy that Amazon has access to all our data held by HMRC ??
KudosDave

NO !

What's next, Starbucks in Job Center's.

This is old school corruption taken to the next level. (If its fact, no offense)

Good deals on Amazon though.

 

[Danidl]

I would have thought, racing certainty, that whatever data they have stored will be encrypted and way out of reach of any employee.

.. any thing which is encrypted, can be retrieved, it just takes time....or a court order...

 

[Woosh]

.. I would not be happy with any company headquartered in the USA having any access to my data.

physical access to the data does not equate to full access.
One of my old friends work on ECC (elliptic curve cryptography), we talk now and then about data encryption. Honestly, it's a lot more difficult to crack the encryption of a stored database than to steal by a trusted employee.

 

[Danidl]

physical access to the data does not equate to full access.
One of my old friends work on ECC (elliptic curve cryptography), we talk now and then about data encryption. Honestly, it's a lot more difficult to crack the encryption of a stored database than to steal by a trusted employee.

.. and if and when you direct by court order, the officers of the company to supply the encryption key, on pain of imprisonment?. That test case with Microsoft and an email held on an Irish server for a European citizen is before the courts. There is similar posturing with the FBI and Apple. Case law is being developed as we speak.

 

[flecc]

But Amazon don't even have a data centre here, they are using third party space after bidding 50% lower than the existing deal. Given the cut-throat business this is, they aren't making any profit and are probably making a loss on the deal.

So why are they using their financial muscle to get this business, there has to be something in it for them? Two possibilities:

1) Using their strength to drive others out of business to eventually get a powerful position in the market. Their move has already killed one UK business.

2) To possibly get their hands on the data.

Both are disreputable and wholely undesirable.
.

 

[JuicyBike]

Amazon are odd.

They do not take profits but simply re-invest to acquire new business, increasing the value of their shares but paying no dividend.

It's interesting to see where they are going with this strategy: simply "killing off competition". Seems to me to be a new kind of capitalism - to own everything in the landscape of e-services.

They could fall victim to a mood swing by Trump if he felt they were no longer "American" and were threatening American traditional commercial interests by this strategy.

 

[Woosh]

.. and if and when you direct by court order, the officers of the company to supply the encryption key, on pain of imprisonment?. That test case with Microsoft and an email held on an Irish server for a European citizen is before the courts. There is similar posturing with the FBI and Apple. Case law is being developed as we speak.

the decryption key does not have to be stored in the cloud.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Amazon Notice to VAT Evading Sellers

HMRC & Amazon issue “GET OUT JAIL FREE CARDS” to VAT Evading Overseas Online Retailers. The card allow them to:

1. Evade all unpaid VAT.
2. Continue trading for 30 days.
3. Keep their stock.
4. Withdraw all their funds.
5. Keep their highly ranked listings.
6. Relist their old stock on their highly ranked listings under a new company.

Well done HMRC !*&!$$$

We have seen a copy of the notice Amazon are sending to VAT Evading Sellers. Amazon sends the notice once they receive a liability notice from HMRC.

It is completely beyond belief that HMRC are not seizing stock, freezing assets and permanently removing the sellers listing from the Amazon catalogue.

Doesn’t HMRC realise that these sellers will simply remove their stock, setup a new company and send the stock back into Amazon and sell it on their old highly ranked listings. And avoid paying any of the unpaid VAT from their old company.

What is sort of deterrent is this? What on earth is going through HMRC’s mind!!?

We can’t believe the complete incompetence that HMRC are still showing in tackling online VAT Fraud.

So HMRC have a softy-softy approach to fraudulent Amazon online sellers,allowing Amazon to continue collecting the listing and selling fees.
Then HMRC get a 50% discount using Amazon Data Services.
Smells a bit,doesnt it?
Sort of reminds me of the Gamekeeper who meets the Poacher in the snug bar after work and divides the spoils.
Surprised Labour havent jumped all over this deal.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

you guys should check the facts out before making judgement about HMRC decision to award AWS the cloud service contract.
Amazon has facilities in London.
https://aws.amazon.com/london/
Trust me on this, in cloud computing, size matters.

 

[Danidl]

the decryption key does not have to be stored in the cloud.

Sorry Woosh but that's evasion.
There is a current discussion in the US that will make it illegal to have unbreakable encryption, without also providing to specific authorities the decryption key. There is no definitive ruling on this as yet., But one of the defences is their fourth amendment on self incrimination. But that protection does not extend to third parties.
Under certain provisions of US law , ciphers and encryption is viewed as a munition. It is a stretch but extradition could in a future be sought for individuals , residing in the UK, on the terrorist pretext of dealing in munitions, for failing to provide access to encrypted files on US located or controlled servers.

 

[Woosh]

Sorry Woosh but that's evasion.
There is a current discussion in the US that will make it illegal to have unbreakable encryption, without also providing to specific authorities the decryption key. There is no definitive ruling on this as yet., But one of the defences is their fourth amendment on self incrimination. But that protection does not extend to third parties.
Under certain provisions of US law , ciphers and encryption is viewed as a munition. It is a stretch but extradition could in a future be sought for individuals , residing in the UK, on the terrorist pretext of dealing in munitions, for failing to provide access to encrypted files on US located or controlled servers.

what are you on about? why storing HRMC data outside the UK when Amazon has 3 server farms in the UK?

 

[Danidl]

what are you on about? why storing HRMC data outside the UK when Amazon has 3 server farms in the UK?

Follow the entire string of my reasoning. A US Court has required Microsoft to release the content of a eMail held on an Irish server. Microsoft are resisting this on on number of grounds, including EU privacy laws and lack of jurisdiction of USA law.

 

[Woosh]

Follow the entire string of my reasoning. A US Court has required Microsoft to release the content of a eMail held on an Irish server. Microsoft are resisting this on on number of grounds, including EU privacy laws and lack of jurisdiction of USA law.

if you would be so kind as to provide me with a link to the case.
I can't comment until I know more.
I use cloud services provided by well known American firms (Google and Microsoft) in my professional life. As far as I am aware, the service contracts do not mention US laws.

 

[Danidl]

Follow the entire string of my reasoning. A US Court has required Microsoft to release the content of a eMail held on an Irish server. Microsoft are resisting this on on number of grounds, including EU privacy laws and lack of jurisdiction of USA law.

Now you will understand that data flows between data farms for security and backup purposes, so why would you or I assume that the information is only located in a specific geographical location?.