Hire in London - Failure?

[Rambo76]

One of the London boroughs wanted to set up a Boris bikes hire scheme for e-bikes. We and other sellers were invited to tender. It was too big a project for us to handle and I could see enormous problems.
I don't think any of us tendered for the task,the council wanted to pass all the hassle over to us and benefit out of the proceeds.
To be honest I don't know any of the e-bikes sold currently in the UK would suit e-bike hire....such bikes need to be very robust and as maintenance free as possible.
KudosDave

Agree that Boris style, where there is no knowledge of renter, might cause those issues.

A renter walking into a rental branch and placing a CC + Insurance is a different story altogether.

 

[Rambo76]

K

Some English are not responsible individuals,can you imagine an e-bike hired in Paddington that runs out of battery in St Albans! Can you imagine some guy ,stoned,rides one into the Thames!
I cannot imagine a more nightmare business.
KudosDave

Kudos, many kids rent vehicles and smash them or run out of fuel, so what?

No return, your CC gets hit in full.

 

[trex]

KD
it does not have to be a nightmare. The biggest issue is not the bike itself, you can specify exactly what you want in a bike, an engineering design company can sort the details out. The biggest issue is the size of the project. You need to think big enough to resource the project correctly.
I would suggest a coop structure to make this work.

 

[Kudoscycles]

K

Kudos, many kids rent vehicles and smash them or run out of fuel, so what?

No return, your CC gets hit in full.

I run a mail order company,I am sure that you must be aware of the number of dodgy or cloned credit cards in circulation.
Irrespective of the finances,someone has to source out the hassle...getting the bike back from St Albans for example.
I know that such a scheme works very well in Copenhagen.
Much easier businesses to run,but good luck to anyone who tries.
KudosDave

 

[Rambo76]

T

KD
it does not have to be a nightmare. The biggest issue is not the bike itself, you can specify exactly what you want in a bike, an engineering design company can sort the details out. The biggest issue is the size of the project. You need to think big enough to resource the project correctly.
I would suggest a coop structure to make this work.

Trex, do you mean Coop or do you mean NetJet style?

And what economy of scale are you thinking off?

 

[Rambo76]

Kud

I run a mail order company,I am sure that you must be aware of the number of dodgy or cloned credit cards in circulation.
Irrespective of the finances,someone has to source out the hassle...getting the bike back from St Albans for example.
I know that such a scheme works very well in Copenhagen.
Much easier businesses to run,but good luck to anyone who tries.
KudosDave

KD, I am not chasing the bike - no return, payment method reserve (frozen at rental) gets used - period.

Think of Car Rental, not mail order.

 

[trex]

I run a mail order company,I am sure that you must be aware of the number of dodgy or cloned credit cards in circulation.
Irrespective of the finances,someone has to source out the hassle...getting the bike back from St Albans for example.
I know that such a scheme works very well in Copenhagen.
Much easier businesses to run,but good luck to anyone who tries.
KudosDave

woosh use chip and pin when renting their e-bikes. No problem with card thieves.
I would recommend also that the renter must join the scheme membership and pay the joining fee with paypal and book online. When they pick up their bike, they must have their booking reference and pay with chip and pin.
No possibility of fibbing here.

 

[Rambo76]

woosh use chip and pin when renting their e-bikes. No problem with card thieves.
I would recommend also that the renter must join the scheme membership and pay the joining fee with paypal and book online. When they pick up their bike, they must have their booking reference and pay with chip and pin.
No possibility of fibbing here.

Membership fee etc eliminates visitors / tourists, and many countries still don't have chip & pin on cards.

 

[trex]

T

Trex, do you mean Coop or do you mean NetJet style?

I mean Coop style. NetJet scheme is excellent if you have docking stations.
If you have to operate with staff, it's easier to market as an not for profit enterprise or a cooperative.
I am thinking of membership of £10 a year. That is to pay for the running cost of the website. You join, sign in, locate the bike you want (cost/date time/.location/make/model/fully charged battery), book it but not pay for it yet.
You turn up, pay for it with chip and pin, leave your driving licence as deposit, take possesion of your bike.
If you return with the bike later than booked, the difference can be paid by chip and pin or charged to your paypal account.
This scheme will eliminate the English hooligans.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Andy Gilligan (London cycling commissioner) wanted to set up public e-bike hire scheme in London. We had lots of discussions on it, I tried hard to steer him away from it but failed. My objection was this:

Cyclists ride bikes. They are self selected experienced riders.
E-bikes are attractive to non cyclists who are likely less experienced.
Put 10'000 inexperienced cyclist on the capitals roads and serious and fatal accident rates will go through the roof.
If that happens the redtops will scream for legislation requiring e-bikers to hold a license, to register their bike, and likely pay some form of tax.
Governments sad but true do what the redtop editors tell them to do.
That would spell the end of e-bikes as a potential mainstream form of transport in the UK. ...Just what big auto and oil want.

Don't belive me? ...I'm starting a new post on this week's terrible news that both China and Taiwan have begun banning e-bikes.

James....Back in 2003 the Chinese had a very effective way of getting the old smelly motorbikes off the road. They introduced a new tax disc for all bikes more than 3 years old,the disc cost £200,more than the value of the bike.
They had a row of skips at every major junction,the poor rider with no disc was persuaded at the end of a Kalashnikov to throw his old bike into the skip.
The limits in China are 12mph and 200 watts,the government have ignored these limits but now are threatening to tighten up Chinese style,the ebikes in China are usually 25mph minimum and can have 4kw power.
Currently one of my suppliers has a giant warehouse,full of e-bikes and e-scooters,8000 units,he can't sell them to his dealers because nobody will buy them.Most Chinese workers get to work on these e-bikes so have no choice but to use them....there are 100 million on the road,most are illegal.
Can you imagine that at every junction into London they used the army and looked for any illegal S-class bike and forced the owner to throw his £3k plus illegal into the skip,very effective recycling,!!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[Rambo76]

I mean Coop style. NetJet scheme is excellent if you have docking stations.
If you have to operate with staff, it's easier to market as an not for profit enterprise or a cooperative.
I am thinking of membership of £10 a year. That is to pay for the running cost of the website. You join, sign in, locate the bike you want (cost/date time/.location/make/model/fully charged battery), book it but not pay for it yet.
You turn up, pay for it with chip and pin, leave your driving licence as deposit, take possesion of your bike.
If you return with the bike later than booked, the difference can be paid by chip and pin or charged to your paypal account.
This scheme will eliminate the English hooligans.

Very interesting, but my concern with a membership is mainly on the volume of initial investment - you can't work with members but not have enough bikes to cater for! This makes startup costs very heavy.

Starting up with 1 location, booking on website, reservation deposit prepaid to reserve & secure, no bike no availability, pick up and pay rest + deposit by card + insurance cover.

 

[trex]

sure, you can start with the usual website for a single point of sale but that will not leave you with enough money for marketing.
My scheme would run on subcription fees and is free to member renters and not limited to London or the UK. It would be of interest to existing bike shops wanting to reach out to the elderly who don't want to use public transport.

 

[flecc]

for some reason some are here at the forum comparing it time and again to Boris bikes.

Because although you aren't seeing it, the London hire bikes are relevant. Most of the rides are on the flat for less than half an hour so are free. No cost is an incentive. They just see an easy uncomplicated option for a shortish easy going run

I know your counter argument is that with e-bikes they would ride further and tackle hills, but I know that isn't necessarily the case for the following reasons.

I live in the hilly North Downs area where one would think e-bikes would be popular, but the fact is they aren't. I never see any, I'm almost on my own with them, the only time I see them in use is when I go to flatter areas. We've discussed this odd phenomenon many times before, how e-bikes are more popular in flat areas.

We see it in our less challenging areas like the Eastern Counties and of course there's the famous case of very flat Holland where the e-bike market is by far the strongest in the world. My opinion is that people in general and particular those not often riding bikes see hilly areas as not suitable for cycling, and e-assistance doesn't alter that fundamental perception, however wrong it might be.
.

 

[Rambo76]

Subcri

sure, you can start with the usual website for a single point of sale but that will not leave you with enough money for marketing.
My scheme would run on subcription fees and is free to member renters and not limited to London or the UK. It would be of interest to existing bike shops wanting to reach out to the elderly who don't want to use public transport.

Subscription fees on 10£ p.a. assuming it covers website costs, how do you see the main costs covered (bikes, locations)? What investment volume do you have in mind?

Very interesting to brainstorm!

 

[james@justebikes.co.uk]

Andy plans are anyhow medium to long term, and with new Mayor there is zero clarity if it will even proceed anywhere (as I gleaned yesterday from a chat with his office @ GLA)!

In any case, I still strongly believe there is room - amongst the millions visiting London - for a high quality ebike rental place.

...only if someone with a few million quid to loose can be found - check out Madrid ebike hire ...on its knees.

 

[trex]

the main costs are in order of importance: staffing, premises, insurance, admin and bikes.
For most bike shops, staffing, premises and insurance are already covered, admin will be assisted by the website. Their staff only have to print the rental contract from the website, get the customer to sign and do the chip and pin. Bikes are the only investment. They probably have them on demo anyway, more money for old ropes. Even if they don't, Hatti is only too pleased to supply at trade price...
I'd say £10K investment per point of sale?

 

[jhruk]

Dear All,

Have looked out for ebike hire in C.London, but did not find anything (Hertz used to do them @ 20£ a day from Marble Arch, but stopped).

Does anyone here know why this business has not gotten off the ground? It might be a interesting opportunity, or am I missing something here?

The cycle shop On Your Bike appear to do electric bike rental:

http://www.onyourbike.com/london-bike-rental.php

They're near London Bridge, as are Volt.

And this may be of interest to Boris Bike fans. No mention of electric ones though:

 

[Rambo76]

the main costs are in order of importance: staffing, premises, insurance, admin and bikes.
For most bike shops, staffing, premises and insurance are already covered, admin will be assisted by the website. Their staff only have to print the rental contract from the website, get the customer to sign and do the chip and pin. Bikes are the only investment. They probably have them on demo anyway, more money for old ropes. Even if they don't, Hatti is only too pleased to supply at trade price...
I'd say £10K investment per point of sale?

Hmmmmm..... Becoming interesting by now...

Now it's about checking those wanting to play along in the trade - your idea of Demo might be slightly problematic as there will be various bikes on display in different shops, making it harder for pricing (unless we use classes as in Car rental industry, with a Kalkhoff as "premium" etc.), makes my investor adrenaline already flow, and the service level of the future brand can not be maintained 100% if outsourced - but again, the idea seems very interesting.

Trex - would you walk into the den, asking for 250'000 for 15%?

 

[Rambo76]

The cycle shop On Your Bike appear to do electric bike rental:

http://www.onyourbike.com/london-bike-rental.php

They're near London Bridge, as are Volt.

And this may be of interest to Boris Bike fans. No mention of electric ones though:

Great comment!

Looked at the pricing there on the ebikes, breakeven after 30 days of Gross daily rental....

 

[Rambo76]

...only if someone with a few million quid to loose can be found - check out Madrid ebike hire ...on its knees.

James, stop thinking of a docking station on the street where every drunk can pick one up.... We are talking about secure locations, either in store or seperate - no comparison to Madrid or to Boris bike