Hi. First ebike conversion.

[Deleted member 25121]

This is wrong youre using the wrong equation this is a power calculation and the windings are not the same in the TSDZ2 48v and 36v motors.

It's not a question of using the "right" or "wrong" equation, it's a question of understanding the physics correctly.

The 36v TSDZ2 battery provides 36v, 13ah ie 468wh
The 48v TSDZ2 battery provides 48v, 13.5ah ie 648wh.

Fundamentally the 48v battery can store and provide 38% more energy.

Take a look at this link and be sure to read all the explanations describing how to use it:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

www.ebikes.ca

It shows a particular scenario resulting the efficiencies of both systems being almost identical but the 48V system allowing for a faster cruising speed (12.4mph vs 9.4mph) on a moderate 5% incline and a range of 23 vs 21 miles.

Note that the 48v system is drawing an average of 7.3a from the battery vs 5.7a from the 36v system, this is the point I was making
earlier on. If the voltage goes up then the current goes up.

 

[Woosh]

but you don't compare like with like. Set both system to same speed, same gradient for comparison, eg: 10kph, 5% gradient, both consume about the same Watts when not pushed hard:

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&motor=MBBS02&mid=true&gear=1&motor_b=MBBS02&mid_b=true&gear_b=1&batt=cust_36_0.2_13&batt_b=cust_48_0.2_13.5&cont=C20&grade=5&grade_b=5&axis=mph&autothrot_b=true&autothrot=true&throt_b=74.4

 

[Deleted member 25121]

but you don't compare like with like. Set both system to same speed, same gradient for comparison, eg: 10kph, 5% gradient, both consume about the same Watts when not pushed hard:

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=true&motor=MBBS02&mid=true&gear=1&motor_b=MBBS02&mid_b=true&gear_b=1&batt=cust_36_0.2_13&batt_b=cust_48_0.2_13.5&cont=C20&grade=5&grade_b=5&axis=mph&autothrot_b=true&autothrot=true&throt_b=74.4

Another scenario where efficiencies of both systems are almost identical.

However the 48v system provides for a faster cruising speed and a longer range and seems to be the sweet spot for typical UK legal ebikes right now, much like 18v seems to be the sweet spot for cordless power tools (but for other reasons of course ).

 

[sprite1275]

Some very good info here. Does anyone own this battery http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-2v-sy7p

It says for 36v 500w motor but will it run the 36v 250w TSDZ2?

Also my frame is small so how does it attach/detach? I have made a template from the measurement given and it's quite tight but would I be able to get it in and out? Had a bit more room upside down.

 

[vfr400]

It looks a bit tight to me. See if a Dolphin battery fits better. the fixings will line up with your bottle holde screws with this one. I'm not sure whether that's so with the one you propose.

 

[Nealh]

I have one of those batteries Sprite (PF cells), it needs about 22 -25mm clearance at the front /top to lift it clear of the top rail/receiver end and then needs 12- 15mm forward action to clear the bottom discharge receiver
With pic #1 with your template no chance of it fitting on to the rail/receiver at all, the bottom is no problem but the top will be impossible.
Pic #2 it might well be better but still tight, you might be able to move it up a tad so gap to top bar is less. Though think you will be better with a different case type.
The fixing rail is easy to fix using bottle mounts and has a slim width profile, the underside is concaved so giving a firm frame footprint for tight secured fixing to the frame, you will likely have to fit extra riv nuts.

 

[vfr400]

36V/48V E-Bike Battery Li-ion Rechargeable Battery Safety W/ Anti-theft Lockable | eBay

Battery TypeLithium Ion (Li-Ion). Compatible Bike TypeUniversal,E-Cargo Bike,E-City Bike,E-Cross Bike,E-Folding Bike. For Bike TypeE-Cargo Bike. Cycle life≥80% capacity after 2000 cycles. For the electric bike.

www.ebay.co.uk

The 36v 15Ah one. Plenty of range and more than enough power. £186 looks a good price.

 

[Nealh]

Side off/release battery, both 10s4p.
29E 417wh or GA 510wh, life cycle wise 29E is far superior over 300 - 500 cycles if any one ever manages that many charges.

ENERPOWER hailong I Frame Battery Li-ion 36V 11,4Ah Pedelec Ebike 29E DIY + Charger | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ENERPOWER hailong I Frame Battery Li-ion 36V 11,4Ah Pedelec Ebike 29E DIY + Charger at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

ENERPOWER Hailong Rahmenakku Li-ion 36v 13 90ah Pedelec Ebike GA DIY Umbausatz for sale | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ENERPOWER Hailong Rahmenakku Li-ion 36v 13 90ah Pedelec Ebike GA DIY Umbausatz at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[sprite1275]

Thanks. I'll leave the Samsung alone and will probably get the side release to be sure. I'll wait a little see if any eBay codes come up before Christmas.
So you would go for the less ah battery? What kind of range would you get from 11.4ah.

 

[Nealh]

There are too many variables to be precise so at 10wh/m approx. 40/41m for the 29e one and 50/51 for the GA one, both are 10s4p.

 

[Nealh]

The side release case is Hailong ll case.

 

[Backpeddle]

The 36v TSDZ2 battery provides 36v, 13ah ie 468wh
The 48v TSDZ2 battery provides 48v, 13.5ah ie 648wh.

Fundamentally the 48v battery can store and provide 38% more energy.

This is a misleading statement the 36v battery is smaller (less cells) that's why it stores less, If it has built with the same number or should I say as close as you can as its built with multiples of 10 as opposed to multiples of 13 for the 48v battery (using the same cell type), the capacity would be the same. You should not compare like for like using Ah it should be Wh (capacity).

You imply that there is an advantage when in reality there is little between using the two voltages and this is down to simply the numbers of cells between the two voltages. A 36v equivalent battery.
roughly based upon the hl 1 battery case would have 50 cells, the nearest 48v equivalent would have 52 cells, a 48v battery therefore would have 2 more thus slightly more capacity.

When you compare like for like the fundamental difference all but disappears, any difference is purely down to the numbers generated by the multiples of cells that the batteries must be constructed too.

An individual cell in both types carries the same charge. You theoretically could even eliminate the difference by using slightly different cell capacities to make up the difference that 2 cells would make.

when constricted with similar cell numbers there might even be a slight weight advantage to the 36v battery but to the casual observer they would look same and feel the same weight.

I think you should be far more careful with how you structure your arguments. To someone new with no knowledge they would see an advantage where there is none and could potentially part with a lot of money based on misleading information. You should think on this point rather than any technical one.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

This is a misleading statement the 36v battery is smaller (less cells) that's why it stores less, If it has built with the same number or should I say as close as you can as its built with multiples of 10 as opposed to multiples of 13 for the 48v battery (using the same cell type), the capacity would be the same. You should not compare like for like using Ah it should be Wh (capacity).

You imply that there is an advantage when in reality there is little between using the two voltages and this is down to simply the numbers of cells between the two voltages. A 36v equivalent battery.
roughly based upon the hl 1 battery case would have 50 cells, the nearest 48v equivalent would have 52 cells, a 48v battery therefore would have 2 more thus slightly more capacity.

When you compare like for like the fundamental difference all but disappears, any difference is purely down to the numbers generated by the multiples of cells that the batteries must be constructed too.

An individual cell in both types carries the same charge. You theoretically could even eliminate the difference by using slightly different cell capacities to make up the difference that 2 cells would make.

when constricted with similar cell numbers there might even be a slight weight advantage to the 36v battery but to the casual observer they would look same and feel the same weight.

I think you should be far more careful with how you structure your arguments. To someone new with no knowledge they would see an advantage where there is none and could potentially part with a lot of money based on misleading information. You should think on this point rather than any technical one.

Calm down dear, I think my statement is perfectly clear:
"
The 36v TSDZ2 battery provides 36v, 13ah ie 468wh
The 48v TSDZ2 battery provides 48v, 13.5ah ie 648wh.

Fundamentally the 48v battery can store and provide 38% more energy.
"
I made no mention of the size of the battery packs, size wasn't a factor in the discussions we were having. By the way, the calculations included the heat loses you were asking for, did you appreciate that?

 

[Woosh]

actual number of Lithium ion cells in series in a '48V' is 13 compared to 10 in a 36V pack, so the increase in capacity for the same AH is 30%.
You want to know which cells are used in your battery for precise comparison.
I use Samsung 18650-35E for the 36V 8AH battery, 18650-29E for 36V 15AH, Panasonic 18650B for 17AH.
Don't buy Chinese cells, the quality is usually lower.
The 36V designation is because when the (Li-ion) cells are half charged, it's 36V. When the battery pack is full, 41.5V, 31V when completely flat.
When the 48V pack is full, 54V, 40.5V when completely flat.

 

[sprite1275]

Side off/release battery, both 10s4p.
29E 417wh or GA 510wh, life cycle wise 29E is far superior over 300 - 500 cycles if any one ever manages that many charges.

ENERPOWER hailong I Frame Battery Li-ion 36V 11,4Ah Pedelec Ebike 29E DIY + Charger | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ENERPOWER hailong I Frame Battery Li-ion 36V 11,4Ah Pedelec Ebike 29E DIY + Charger at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

ENERPOWER Hailong Rahmenakku Li-ion 36v 13 90ah Pedelec Ebike GA DIY Umbausatz for sale | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ENERPOWER Hailong Rahmenakku Li-ion 36v 13 90ah Pedelec Ebike GA DIY Umbausatz at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

Hello there. This is bad but I still have not fitted my TSDZ2 yet. I need to do it now though as with the coronavirus causing havoc around the globe my income has been severely reduced so I want to keep the car off the road and cycle to work.

A bit of electric power will make this less daunting. My question is again can you recommend a battery for me? The 2 links you posted have now expired. Can you point me in the direction of some more? I've looked but there are loads out there and not sure what's decent quality or not.

 

[Nealh]

Blimey four months dragging your feet and now you are in a bit of a hurry.

You need to be looking at 14.5ah batteries or more imho.

Sansung 29e great cells as long as you don't abuse them by de-restricting the speed limit to much and don't use to much current 15 -17a max should be fine.
Make sure it will fit your frame inc 20 odd mm to lift on/off the cradle.

Pardon our interruption...

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[sprite1275]

Blimey four months dragging your feet and now you are in a bit of a hurry.

You need to be looking at 14.5ah batteries or more imho.

Sansung 29e great cells as long as you don't abuse them by de-restricting the speed limit to much and don't use to much current 15 -17a max should be fine.
Make sure it will fit your frame inc 20 odd mm to lift on/off the cradle.

Pardon our interruption...

www.ebay.co.uk

Cheers. Health and work issues have put it in the back burner but hopefully get it on soon.

How do you know this one is 29e? Won't be derestricting the unit so that's not an issue. I'll check them sizes out. Are there no side release out there? They should be made a lot more I reckon.

 

[Nealh]

The info is in the specs and sometimes you need to read between the lines.
The cells Samsung 2900mah, they only make one 2900 mah 18650 cell which is the 29e. Also 10s5p configuration , the battery is 14.5ah so 14.5 divided by the P (parallel group cells) which is five equates 2900.

You have to search and search to find what you need.

As a rule when you see a battery see if you can see the cell configuration in any specs supplied with the listing
10s = 36v ( 10 x 3.6) 3.6 is the cell nominal SOC.
P = Parallel these are the amount of cells in a parallel group, batteries can be 3 ,4 5 or 6p in general.

 

[Nealh]

Side release, the 11.6 & 14ah are 10s4p.
11.6 is Sam29e & 14 is Sam 35e, the 29e is the better cell over a longer period of life cycles (700) by about 5%.
The 35e loses about 7.5% capacity after the first 100 cycles & nearly 10% by 300 cycles.
29e loses about 3.5% capacity at 100 cycles & about 7.5% at 300 cycles by 700cycles it is 10% reduction which is very good, much better then 30q or GA cell which will be 15% or more.

On top of these prices you have to factor in costs like courier charges and import charges so could be up to 30 - 50 quid on top. I haven't imported a battery so don't really know.
The other issue is if it goes wrong who is going to repair it, if a fault occurs ?

Page Not Found - Aliexpress.com

 

[sprite1275]

Thanks. I'll measure my bike tomorrow but there is someone at work with an electric bike and there frame looked as small as mine and the battery they have is pretty much Same size as the first one you posted.

where do you get your batteries from or do you have a purpose built?