Help with my first conversion kit.

[Benjahmin]

One more time.
The legislation says that 250W is the maximum RATED power. This means that the motor will not overheat when this wattage is applied continuously. This is nothing to do with the output wattage from the battery, there is no maximum for this in legislation.
So a systems that outputs 900W from the battery is legal so long as the motor is 250W rated.
This insistance on constantly misrepresenting the legal standing of 250w machines is both confusing and misleading to new pedalecers like the OP who is asking for help with his first kit.
The reason that prosecutions for 250w motors can't be found is because they are legal. The prosecutions that can be found will probably be for large pancake motors rated at 1kw or larger.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Were



I thought it has been explained to you many times, yet here we are again...

Yes its been explained and I don't accept that explanation. There are a huge amount of people that don't accept the EU legislation is legitimately 250W and I am one of them. You can argue that close to 900W is an acceptable wattage for a 250W ebike but I don't accept that. The idea that you can just say the motor can operate at 250W so can be classed as 250W even if 3.5x that power is going through the motor in normal use I don't accept as fair or honest legislation. The fact the difference between legality and illegality is just the use of a 250W sticker rather than a technical specification again I don't accept as professional or accurate legislation and certification. It's as simple as that I understand the explanation given but I totally reject it.

 

[Az.]

Yes its been explained and I don't accept that explanation. There are a huge amount of people that don't accept the EU legislation is legitimately 250W and I am one of them. You can argue that close to 900W is an acceptable wattage for a 250W ebike but I don't accept that. The idea that you can just say the motor can operate at 250W so can be classed as 250W even if 3.5x that power is going through the motor in normal use I don't accept as fair or honest legislation. The fact the difference between legality and illegality is just the use of a 250W sticker rather than a technical specification again I don't accept as professional or accurate legislation and certification. It's as simple as that I understand the explanation given but I totally reject it.

You make up law which does not exist and then you keep arguing with it.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

One more time.
The legislation says that 250W is the maximum RATED power. This means that the motor will not overheat when this wattage is applied continuously. This is nothing to do with the output wattage from the battery, there is no maximum for this in legislation.
So a systems that outputs 900W from the battery is legal so long as the motor is 250W rated.
This insistance on constantly misrepresenting the legal standing of 250w machines is both confusing and misleading to new pedalecers like the OP who is asking for help with his first kit.
The reason that prosecutions for 250w motors can't be found is because they are legal. The prosecutions that can be found will probably be for large pancake motors rated at 1kw or larger.

The only prosecutions I could find was for big beefy e-scramblers without pedals and a tiny low wattage ebike without pedals. The e-scramblers assisted well above 15.5mph but the little ebike purely lacked pedals. Yes the e-scramblers had twist and go throttles but that wasn't relevant to the prosecution they were effectively e-motorcycles. It should also be pointed out direct drive hub motors (pancake motors) can operate with as little as 200W and most are below the wattage of mid-drive e-mountain bikes that claim to be 250W. I think I'm correct in stating that some of the early ebikes were often direct drive hub motors some using nimh or sealed lead acid batteries. They are typically the most efficient but weakest motors with the lowest torque. They are really just over-sized brushless motors with no internal gearing. They are only use high wattage if you un-restrict them for speed.

 

[soundwave]

my bosch app said i did 8.48 miles today yet komoot says 15.6 miles and max speed of 32mph oh no

 

[Bonzo Banana]

You make up law which does not exist and then you keep arguing with it.

That reply doesn't seem to make any sense. Maybe it worked in your head but it doesn't actually work in reality. I've only referenced information given to me in threads defending the current 250W legislation. That's what I'm not agreeing with. However I would love to think the current ebike legislation is a figment of my imagination but sadly it isn't there really are people writing legislation that allows 900W ebikes to be called 250W ebikes and then ending up with ebikes of hugely different wattage all calling themselves 250W that is actually the reality of this stupid legislation and certification. It really is that incompetent and badly written.

 

[Az.]

legislation that allows 900W ebikes to be called 250W ebikes and then ending up with ebikes of hugely different wattage all calling themselves 250W

There are no 900W bikes pretending to be 250W.
There are bikes with 250W rated motors able to deliver 900W of power. All perfectly legal. There is no EU or UK law limiting power of electric motors used to make e-bikes.

You keep mixing two different things and refusing to understand the difference.

I honestly give up. Despite of effort put into explaining the difference I know you will be back with the same statements in few weeks.

 

[soundwave]

its called can bus and a totally locked controller via software sure i can remove the speed limit with a rip off dongle but it does not give me any more amps as no way to shunt mod this crap.

hire scooters are legal yet private owned ones are not and sold everywhere a bbshd can nuke my ass with a throttle range is 17-20 miles with 20ah but uses it for work and never had any problems.

at 120 rpm at the cranks with the bosch cx motor with dongle to remove the speed limit there is no way i could hit my max speed of 39.6mph on the flat.

so it is 250w at 15mph or below this speed the power is in effect unlimited bar via software control.

so i use a dongle to remove the speed limit and why at max rpm have nuked every road bike but it does not give me full control over the amps the controller gives me i could rip it all out and use a 3rd party vesc controller ect but wont be road legal anyway.

im not road legal if my bike was road legal anyway

 

[saneagle]

The only prosecutions I could find was for big beefy e-scramblers without pedals and a tiny low wattage ebike without pedals. The e-scramblers assisted well above 15.5mph but the little ebike purely lacked pedals. Yes the e-scramblers had twist and go throttles but that wasn't relevant to the prosecution they were effectively e-motorcycles. It should also be pointed out direct drive hub motors (pancake motors) can operate with as little as 200W and most are below the wattage of mid-drive e-mountain bikes that claim to be 250W. I think I'm correct in stating that some of the early ebikes were often direct drive hub motors some using nimh or sealed lead acid batteries. They are typically the most efficient but weakest motors with the lowest torque. They are really just over-sized brushless motors with no internal gearing. They are only use high wattage if you un-restrict them for speed.

You have an idea in your head about how the law should be, but that's not how it is. The law is written down. All anybody has to do is comply with it. There is no maximum power for a 250w ebike. Whether you like it or not, that's how it is. The definition of a 250w ebike is any ebike with 250 w stamped on it by the manufacturer or listed as a 250w bike by the manufacturer. If you buy a bike or motor with 350w stamped on it, it's a 350w bike and illegal.

 

[thelarkbox]

That reply doesn't seem to make any sense. Maybe it worked in your head but it doesn't actually work in reality. I've only referenced information given to me in threads defending the current 250W legislation. That's what I'm not agreeing with. However I would love to think the current ebike legislation is a figment of my imagination but sadly it isn't there really are people writing legislation that allows 900W ebikes to be called 250W ebikes and then ending up with ebikes of hugely different wattage all calling themselves 250W that is actually the reality of this stupid legislation and certification. It really is that incompetent and badly written.

Yes, but as any legal bod will tell you the law is more than the written statutes, its also the intent or spirit of the law and the presidents of common practice. And even if the letter of the law re e-bikes is less than optimal engineering speak, its intent or spirit is pretty damn clear.. bikes should remain bikes, and not morph into mopeds or motorbikes.. And i only scrapped by basic law classes 40 odd years ago..

The fact that any motor that is rated to run at 250w can peak at expending 2-3x that power under load is just how motors work. Also rating can be applied differently depending on end use, if the end use was in a medical context it would probably require significantly lower fail rates than if say used in a more casual context, and one such way to ensure less failures is to build to a higher standard and tolerance so what may be rated 500w for casual use could be honestly labeled 250w for clinical use. More realistically If ev motor company A can make a profit selling motors with a 20% fail rate in the first 24 months of use thy will produce motors of a quality that will match thier expectations, Company B may wish to establish a better name and want only 10% or less of motors to fail in the same period.. laissez-faire .

 

[guerney]

at 120 rpm at the cranks with the bosch cx motor with dongle to remove the speed limit there is no way i could hit my max speed of 39.6mph on the flat.

You need more power!

 

[Benjahmin]

Yes its been explained and I don't accept that explanation. There are a huge amount of people that don't accept the EU legislation is legitimately 250W and I am one of them. You can argue that close to 900W is an acceptable wattage for a 250W ebike but I don't accept that. The idea that you can just say the motor can operate at 250W so can be classed as 250W even if 3.5x that power is going through the motor in normal use I don't accept as fair or honest legislation. The fact the difference between legality and illegality is just the use of a 250W sticker rather than a technical specification again I don't accept as professional or accurate legislation and certification. It's as simple as that I understand the explanation given but I totally reject it.

So, there is this law. But I don't agree with the law. I will interpet the law how I think it should be. So I will argue against the law and behave accordingly.
So lets all, individually, behave how our own personal and/or convenient interpretations of law, or lack of it, say we can.

Mmmm!

 

[guerney]

Yes its been explained and I don't accept that explanation. There are a huge amount of people that don't accept the EU legislation is legitimately 250W and I am one of them. You can argue that close to 900W is an acceptable wattage for a 250W ebike but I don't accept that. The idea that you can just say the motor can operate at 250W so can be classed as 250W even if 3.5x that power is going through the motor in normal use I don't accept as fair or honest legislation. The fact the difference between legality and illegality is just the use of a 250W sticker rather than a technical specification again I don't accept as professional or accurate legislation and certification. It's as simple as that I understand the explanation given but I totally reject it.

What do you want exactly? Surely a motor which burns out at 251W, is simply a fuse? At 250W, it'd be a slower blowing fuse.

BTW Your usual long rant about throttles being illegal is conspiuously absent this time - I do hope you've had your say where ranting stands a far greater chance of making a difference:

Smarter regulation: proposed changes to legislation for electrically assisted pedal cycles

Seeks views on proposed changes to the regulations on electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPCs or e-cycles).

www.gov.uk

Who knows? Perhaps as an added bonus, this illegal 500W rated hub motor you bought from Amazon Warehouse could also become legal.

 

[saneagle]

Yes, but as any legal bod will tell you the law is more than the written statutes, its also the intent or spirit of the law and the presidents of common practice. And even if the letter of the law re e-bikes is less than optimal engineering speak, its intent or spirit is pretty damn clear.. bikes should remain bikes, and not morph into mopeds or motorbikes.. And i only scrapped by basic law classes 40 odd years ago..

The fact that any motor that is rated to run at 250w can peak at expending 2-3x that power under load is just how motors work. Also rating can be applied differently depending on end use, if the end use was in a medical context it would probably require significantly lower fail rates than if say used in a more casual context, and one such way to ensure less failures is to build to a higher standard and tolerance so what may be rated 500w for casual use could be honestly labeled 250w for clinical use. More realistically If ev motor company A can make a profit selling motors with a 20% fail rate in the first 24 months of use thy will produce motors of a quality that will match thier expectations, Company B may wish to establish a better name and want only 10% or less of motors to fail in the same period.. laissez-faire .

Hmmm!

Are those 250w Amazon delivery quads that can carry 500kg legal under the spirit of the law them?

Amazon launches first fleet of e-cargo bikes in the UK

Amazon’s electric delivery vans, e-cargo bikes and walkers will make more than five million last mile deliveries a year across Central London.

www.aboutamazon.co.uk

 

[flecc]

there really are people writing legislation that allows 900W ebikes to be called 250W ebikes and then ending up with ebikes of hugely different wattage all calling themselves 250W that is actually the reality of this stupid legislation and certification. It really is that incompetent and badly written.

It's not stupid, it's not incompetent and it is not badly written.

It does what it should do, certify a motor as being able to deliver 250 watts consistently over wide range of circumstances, while allowing sufficient power for the specific need ín the more difficult circumstances.

Back in the early 1970s we once had the law you want, but we didn't have any EAPCs since any produced to that rigid specification were useless. So we changed the law to suit the real world, rather than the lawyer's and bureaucrat's one, and scrapped the related British Standard, the specification for motors for battery operated vehicles published by the British Standards Institution under the reference 1727: 1971 as amended by Amendment Slip No. 1 published on 31st January 1973, Amendment Slip No. 2 published on 31st July 1974 and Amendment Slip No. 3 published on 31st March 1978

The result is that we now have a wide range of genuinely useful EAPCs covering all needs, from light assistance in flat areas to hauling heavy cargo bicycles up hills.

Changing that back to a peak power figure that we once had would be stupid, incompetent and badly written, causing innumerable difficulties relative to other vehicles and wiping out EAPCs once more.
.

 

[thelarkbox]

Hmmm!

Are those 250w Amazon delivery quads that can carry 500kg legal under the spirit of the law them?

I Dunno, but i sure don't fancy pedalling one with a flat battery tho.

I wonder is the on the go loo facility train like or caravan like? drop or carry?

 

[saneagle]

I Dunno, but i sure don't fancy pedalling one with a flat battery tho.

I was thinking the same.

 

[Nealh]

Bad enough trying to pedal a BBS01 with a flat battery for 15 miles , let alone a 500kg quad cargo bike.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

You have an idea in your head about how the law should be, but that's not how it is. The law is written down. All anybody has to do is comply with it. There is no maximum power for a 250w ebike. Whether you like it or not, that's how it is. The definition of a 250w ebike is any ebike with 250 w stamped on it by the manufacturer or listed as a 250w bike by the manufacturer. If you buy a bike or motor with 350w stamped on it, it's a 350w bike and illegal.

That's not how certification works for most products and not how it works for ebikes outside the EU. The only reason someone has put 350W on a ebike that is restricted to 15.5mph is they haven't understood how ridiculous EU certification is. However we are now seeing Chinese ebike manufacturers selling 750W ebikes restricted to 15.5mph as 250W but the 250W is not their rated power or continuous power of the motor it's just a wattage they will work at even if they can take 4x that power with the supplied controller. It's just an absolute farce with an ebike being so called illegal for having a 350W or 10A controller on a 36V ebike but another ebike with a 23A controller at 36V is perfectly legal.

Many ebikes are using exactly the same motor and some are classed as 250W and others are illegal as still stated to be their real wattage like 750W. Same motor but completely different legal status all because of the use of a sticker basically. It's just utterly ridiculous.

I realise there is many on here that will defend that situation but I personally can't accept it as professional or fair certification. I was a compliance officer for many years and saw hundreds of standards and 1000s of certificates for various products which I had to check for their legal status and there was nothing as ridiculous as ebike certification for any of those products that I can remember it was all logical and fair.

How can you fairly prosecute someone for having a 350W ebike when it is only a fraction of the power of many so called 250W ebikes?

 

[lenny]

I was a compliance officer