Help us build a better Ebike battery

[Woosh]

That either 30% extra weight or 30% less Wh would get you a pack tat charges in 15 minutes (I know not for everyone) but would also last 3 times as long as traditional Li-ion and Li-Po packs. Some pack last less than 18 months with regular use, so having 1500-2000 cycles is a very big pro.

We are also looking to start a buy back scheme for used packs so at the end of life you can reclaim the value depending on the degradation in the cells.

You need 2000 cycles for rental bikes but for own bikes, there isn't any real need for 2000 charging cycles. Basic 1000 cycles with current Lithium Ion on 400WH-500WH batteries are good enough for 5-7 years for most users.
The point I try to make is the minimum cells on e-bikes are Li-ion 2,900mAH. We are moving to 3,400mAH within a year. LFP cells can't compete.

 

[RobF]

Range is what's required for many of us.

I run Bosch bikes, the modest power is plenty, but the range is not.

It's no accident Bosch has introduced a twin battery system, usually specced as 500wh x 2.

 

[soundwave]

the cx motor can draw 1100w according to black ped

 

[jwm]

You are probably spot on for rental in terms of charge time, though your market will be pretty small. From a consumer point of view why reinvent the wheel (ish) with a complete system, your focus appears to be on the battery. Certainly quicker charge times would be welcomed by most users, though an hour would be a good balance... think of the 15 minute battery chargers for AA, AAA batteries etc, the relative purchase price to charge time isn't appealing to consumers.

As others have pointed out, the smaller battery with shorter charge time would rely on short trips (and you wouldn't recharge the battery often) or the reliance on charging at your chosen destination cafe/pub, the infrastructure is not there.

Personally at 300Wh @ 36v and a charge time of an hour, I'd buy a few if cost was relative to the current market prices.

John

 

[jwm]

More info here:

https://angel.co/petalite

 

[jwm]

Off topic, but this made me smile too...
http://www.healing-crystals-for-you.com/petalite.html

 

[anotherkiwi]

The problem you have with LiPo and no BMS is it is very dangerous for the average consumer and there is really no way a company could sell this as a unit.

I like the range and charge time you mentioned though, we can always develop a cheaper 1 hour charger for our unit.

I am not average. The average consumer has LiPo in his pocket...

 

[lnunell]

You are probably spot on for rental in terms of charge time, though your market will be pretty small. From a consumer point of view why reinvent the wheel (ish) with a complete system, your focus appears to be on the battery. Certainly quicker charge times would be welcomed by most users, though an hour would be a good balance... think of the 15 minute battery chargers for AA, AAA batteries etc, the relative purchase price to charge time isn't appealing to consumers.

As others have pointed out, the smaller battery with shorter charge time would rely on short trips (and you wouldn't recharge the battery often) or the reliance on charging at your chosen destination cafe/pub, the infrastructure is not there.

Personally at 300Wh @ 36v and a charge time of an hour, I'd buy a few if cost was relative to the current market prices.

John

Hi John,

That is definitely something that we can focus on, it is alot easier for us to create a 1 hour charger once we have completed our 15 minute charger. I will keep you informed.

Thanks

 

[lnunell]

I am not average. The average consumer has LiPo in his pocket...

Yeah, but the LiPO in your phone has a very powerful BMS and they still have issues *cough* Samsung. That why I was saying a LiPo without BMS can be dangerous for large numbers of sales.

 

[D8ve]

More info here:

https://angel.co/petalite

That's helpful, it moves him from a crank trying out ideas to a genuine entrepreneur.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Yeah, but the LiPO in your phone has a very powerful BMS and they still have issues *cough* Samsung. That why I was saying a LiPo without BMS can be dangerous for large numbers of sales.

Who says I don't have a BMS? Mine is in the charger.

On another thread I have been talking about the "powerful" BMS in my Android tablet. It isn't as powerful as it could be is my conclusion. Samsung have confirmed that the physical constraints of a stupid race to slimness made them install unsafe batteries. That has nothing to do with the BMS which may have been capable of shutting the phone down when it detected a rise in temperature but that wouldn't have done much good anyway.

 

[ttxela]

Hi Ttxela,

What is the battery pack and motor you are using?

I know that 15 minute charging will not appeal to everyone, we are either looking for someone who wants a lighter pack, more discreet and secure pack or just likes the idea of being able to recharge in time to go grab a drink

Thanks[/QUOTE

I am riding a Kalkhoff Pro Connect 9G so its their impulse 2.0 drive and a 15Ah battery.

 

[Linfitter]

Hi all,

I am new to the ebike scene, but my company has started to develop an Ebike battery that can be fully charged in under 15 minutes and will be charged safer than traditional charging (our IP). We are looking to have this tech mainly sold to bike hire schemes (boris bikes) that will be used significantly but we see a market to sell to consumers also. We already have our technology in industrial applications and in single cell products but we are now pushing our technology towards Ebikes..

This is not a advertisement or marketing effort so we will not be saying what business we work for; but we are looking for current owners of ebikes to help us out with what really matters to you as owners. We are about 6 months away from full working 150 and 300Wh battery packs that can charge to 100% in under 15 minutes, below are the specification we are looking to achieving.

• 48 volt
• 32 cells in the pack with 2 in Parallel and 16 in series layout.
• The pack will be approximately 60% of the weight of the lead acid cells, saving weight.
• 15 minute charging to 100%
• 150 & 300Wh Pack
• 1500-2000 cycles (0-100% DOD)
• Total weight = 3Kg.
• Estimated range: 31 Mile (pedal assist).

We estimate that we will be able to retail the battery packs price wise to both Shimano and Bosch, we also know that our packs will last longer and be more durable. So 15 minute charging and longer life are the pros, but we will be seeing a slightly heavier pack and a larger charger to be able to power this kit.

Can you let me know what you would expect from this kit? What you miss on the current ebike batteries and motors? Desired features? What you think of the specs we have put above, and do you even care about 15 minute charging?

We want to really push the design and development to be ready this year but we feel contributions from the community will be a great addition to creating a great product.

Thanks,

Leigh.

Was going to post this on a new thread but yours is a similiar subject so If you don't mind I will post it here.

I have been reading (again) this time ‘Bike Europe’ in which it was stated (5thJan) that MIT and Samsung had developed a solid state Battery (no mention of power or capacity but as the article was in ‘Bike Europe’ one would have thought the subject was relevant) that had no degradation that could last for hundreds of thousands of recharge cycles (14,000 yrs for me) that should be ready for 2018. It was also ultra safe pretty near bomb proof.

Now there are obvious ramifications to be overcome if this statement is true. To turn out everlasting Batteries for retail sale would, in the long run, be detrimental to Samsung and so the only answer as far as I can see is for Samsung to do a ‘Microsoft’ and offer its Battery ‘on loan’ with a ‘smart’ key that holds all your details for a small initial fee of say £50.00. These Batteries would not be rechargeable ‘at home’ and would have to be exchanged for a fully recharged one at a (Government has said that it intends to see that there is a fully integrated re-charging structure throughout the Country -24hrs) ‘Docking’ Station/Charging Centre where on ‘docking’ the old battery in a specific ‘docking centre’ machine the information on the old batteries ‘key’ would be transferred to the fully charged ‘exchange’ battery thus enabling the exchange battery to work with the old, registered to you, key. (A Battery of this type would be absolutely useless to anyone else and should eliminate attempts at theft of it from your bike or attempted theft damage at the Charging Centre).

A suitable fee charging structure would have to be worked out to make the prospect attractive but the prospect has its merits. A Weekend at the Seaside (80 mile away for me) by bike would become a feasible prospect with a bit of planning as to where to pull in for a recharged battery (up to 8 of them for me-there and back, around a tenner sounds about right).

My question is: if the above prospect becomes fact and Battery power and capacity reasonable would you give up your present system? and how much would you be prepared to pay for access to exchange batteries? My present Battery worked out at about £60.00 per year plus charging costs so £1.50 per week or £75.00 per year would not be unreasonable as far as I am concerned especially given the advantages. At that rate those of you that had to buy the Bosch £800.00 batteries would be quids in. And what about bike costings? think of it, £800.00 off a Bosch with a £50 battery even I might be tempted to buy one of those then.

That’s enough from me


Linfitter.

 

[Simon C]

Most new bikes are coming with 500w batteries as the market progresses i would personally be delighted if my 500 w could be recharged in an hour never mind 15 mins. The biggest downside I have found on Ebikes is range even with 500w range is around 30 mile. If you developed a charger that could recharge quickly and was light enough to carry that would be fantastic.

 

[jwm]

Was going to post this on a new thread but yours is a similiar subject so If you don't mind I will post it here.

I have been reading (again) this time ‘Bike Europe’ in which it was stated (5thJan) that MIT and Samsung had developed a solid state Battery (no mention of power or capacity but as the article was in ‘Bike Europe’ one would have thought the subject was relevant) that had no degradation that could last for hundreds of thousands of recharge cycles (14,000 yrs for me) that should be ready for 2018. It was also ultra safe pretty near bomb proof.

Now there are obvious ramifications to be overcome if this statement is true. To turn out everlasting Batteries for retail sale would, in the long run, be detrimental to Samsung and so the only answer as far as I can see is for Samsung to do a ‘Microsoft’ and offer its Battery ‘on loan’ with a ‘smart’ key that holds all your details for a small initial fee of say £50.00. These Batteries would not be rechargeable ‘at home’ and would have to be exchanged for a fully recharged one at a (Government has said that it intends to see that there is a fully integrated re-charging structure throughout the Country -24hrs) ‘Docking’ Station/Charging Centre where on ‘docking’ the old battery in a specific ‘docking centre’ machine the information on the old batteries ‘key’ would be transferred to the fully charged ‘exchange’ battery thus enabling the exchange battery to work with the old, registered to you, key. (A Battery of this type would be absolutely useless to anyone else and should eliminate attempts at theft of it from your bike or attempted theft damage at the Charging Centre).

A suitable fee charging structure would have to be worked out to make the prospect attractive but the prospect has its merits. A Weekend at the Seaside (80 mile away for me) by bike would become a feasible prospect with a bit of planning as to where to pull in for a recharged battery (up to 8 of them for me-there and back, around a tenner sounds about right).

My question is: if the above prospect becomes fact and Battery power and capacity reasonable would you give up your present system? and how much would you be prepared to pay for access to exchange batteries? My present Battery worked out at about £60.00 per year plus charging costs so £1.50 per week or £75.00 per year would not be unreasonable as far as I am concerned especially given the advantages. At that rate those of you that had to buy the Bosch £800.00 batteries would be quids in. And what about bike costings? think of it, £800.00 off a Bosch with a £50 battery even I might be tempted to buy one of those then.

That’s enough from me


Linfitter.

It won't happen... electric cars have been around long enough and the infrastructure isn't there to support it, either in this fashion or any indication for the future. The Renault Zoe and Nissan Leaf were designed to allow a quick change of battery (drops from bottom of vehicle)... the Renault dealers have to send for a specialist from France to do any work.

As a Zoe owner electric is great and I like the fact I don't own the battery as they are just under £7k to buy but you take deal with degradation risk etc; oddly they have a cost for the battery but dealers here are clueless on replacement of the battery.

I would add nothing is useless/worthless (i.e without the key), there is the potential to rework what's in it (well beyond me though there are plenty on here who are competent enough) or just value in materials, e.g when catalytic converters were £50 a pop in scrap they were literally falling off cars overnight.

John

 

[Woosh]

From a consumer point of view why reinvent the wheel (ish) with a complete system, your focus appears to be on the battery. Certainly quicker charge times would be welcomed by most users, though an hour would be a good balance... think of the 15 minute battery chargers for AA, AAA batteries etc, the relative purchase price to charge time isn't appealing to consumers.

but he didn't re-invent the wheel. The technology is there, the reason it didn't get more traction is because it is a niche requirement. What the customers like more is range. What the suppliers like more is high gravimetric density.
70 miles range is about as much as needed. That's easily accomplished with a 500WH battery.
You come home, plug the charger in and forget all about it until the morning. Or better still, charge only once a week.

 

[Woosh]

this is the 48V 5A fast charger from Luna Cycles:

https://lunacycle.com/batteries/chargers/48v-5amp-ebike-lithium-fast-smart-charger/

 

[jwm]

but he didn't re-invent the wheel. The technology is there, the reason it didn't get more traction is because it is a niche requirement. What the customers like more is range. What the suppliers like more is high gravimetric density.
70 miles range is about as much as needed. That's easily accomplished with a 500WH battery.
You come home, plug the charger in and forget all about it until the morning. Or better still, charge only once a week.

Hi Woosh the reference to reinventing the wheel was with regards to the OP looking to produce a full kit... why bother when there are plenty of suppliers out there already?

I ride my bike a lot commuting, shopping, leisure etc (500-700 miles a month), all three of our bikes are electric. Large batteries are good if a) you can afford them and take the risk after warranty period b) you want to lug the extra weight round and c) happy to replace if they get stolen (at a higher cost than a smaller battery.

Obviously I'm a consumer rather than a retailer, I know from our experience with the bikes and the electric car, that although the selling point is always the range, the reality is that you never do as many miles on a charge as you think.

I charge overnight as you describe, however I'd prefer to get back in and charge in say an hour as it gives more flexibility to pop out again later (e.g. early morning ride then to go shopping) or if I go a longer distance and stop at a cafe etc. My biggest dislike is of all the ebikes I've had they have all had different batteries, it's a pain in the backside to have different mounts, connectors etc.


John

 

[Woosh]

With a 2A charger, every mile you ride will take roughly 6 minutes to recharge, so it's easy to estimate how long it will take to top up and set a wallplug timer to put your mind at rest. A 4A fast charger will take half the time without worrying about BMS compatibility.
Sure, different batteries require different connectors, if I were in that situation, I'll fit Anderson to my charger and get an adaper for each battery. You can find plenty of adapters from Anderson to XLR, to RCA jacks, to XT60, to DC jacks 5.5 etc. -

 

[Artstu]

70 miles range is about as much as needed. That's easily accomplished with a 500WH battery.

If only that were true, I'd have to be extremely economical with the assist power on my bike to achieve 70 miles from 500 wh, it's more in the region of 30 miles or less for me.