Help please, TSDZ2 problem...

[grecoa]

Hi
I have recently joined this forum and already need help
After a little research I decided to convert my Carrera Kracken using a TSDZ2 mid motor as I liked the torque sensor feature. I have already been using Aliexpress and found what appears to be a reasonable supplier there.

Fitted the motor and battery no problem, and set config parameters, wheel size and speed limit etc.
First short road test (about a mile) brilliant! No problems.
Second outing, after about 2 miles of riding ok came to long steady incline, In assist level 2 and 4th gear brilliant, climbing nicely with steady pressure on pedals. Suddenly motor tone changed and loss of assistance (in fact it felt like resistance from the motor). Assistance came back after a couple of seconds and continued to pulse on and off in this way. Changing gear and increasing assistance level had no effect. Checked for obvious problems, nothing apparent. Stopping, power off then restart appeared to resolve the problem but it soon recurred. I felt the motor for signs of overheating but it felt cool. Cut ride short and went home
Back in workshop I thought one of the battery connection plug pins was not making a good contact so decided to remove and permanently solder the connection. Quick road test round block with 500m incline (last bit back to my house) and all appeared fine.
couple of days later rode 3.5 miles to mums house, all ok, including about half a mile incline with no problems. Rode 4.5 miles back home all OK untill last 500m incline when the assistance pulsed off and on just the once. I continued round the block and up the same incline again and all was perfect...
Couple of days later I decided to try a longer run, but after a couple of miles the same symptoms returned and would not resolve so I decided to assistance level to "Off" and continue my 20 miles unassisted.

I have been in communication with the supplier but they are unable to offer any real help and say they will replace faulty part if it can be identified but can't tell me how and what to test.

So if anyone can offer any advice, recognises the symptoms or can tell me what can be tested and how, I would be most grateful.

Apologies for the length of the post, just trying to be thorough, Oh, hope it's in the right part of the forum.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Nealh]

The TSDZ's have a start up sequence that affects the initialising of the torque sensor if not done correctly the torque drive plays up.
When switching the bike on DO NOT touch or rotate the pedals/cranks until initialising programme has finished, it should be in the users manual somewhere.

Or speak to Andrew or Tony at Woosh Bikes as they may be able to help more, though will charge you if they need to look at your drive unit.

 

[grecoa]

The TSDZ's have a start up sequence that affects the initialising of the torque sensor if not done correctly the torque drive plays up.
When switching the bike on DO NOT touch or rotate the pedals/cranks until initialising programme has finished, it should be in the users manual somewhere.

Or speak to Andrew or Tony at Woosh Bikes as they may be able to help more, though will charge you if they need to look at your drive unit.

Thanks Nealh, I am aware of the need to let the system initialise before rotating the pedals. I will try talking to the guys at Woosh that you suggest.

 

[Nealh]

The TSDZ is not without issues on ES there is a large thread on the topic, with controller issues and the blue drive gear suffering problems.

 

[grecoa]

Nealh, can you post a link to the thread you mentioned please?

 

[wheeliepete]

Here you go grecoa, should keep you entertained for the evening

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788

 

[DouglasXK]

Fortunately I’ve not experienced such a problem. There have been difficult to diagnose problems which have come from incorrectly connecting the connectors. What happens is one or other of the pins in either a 5 or 8 pin connector are bent out of engagement - easily done.

It would help to know the motor data eg 48 or 36volt and where the battery came from. There are some very unreliable ones which have such poor capacity that the voltage sag which occurs “naturally” after a sustained effort can drop far enough to cause the motor controller or battery management system to shut down to protect the battery which is what could be happening with yours. As soon as the battery recovers, power is reapplied. They can switch off and on quite rapidly if they’re really bad.

 

[grecoa]

Here you go grecoa, should keep you entertained for the evening

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788

Thanks wheeliepete, Have red bloodshot eyes from screen reading 150+ pages......... Only common issue is linked to torque sensor calibration at startup. I found a Chinese/English VLCD5 manual online that shows a hidden menu that shows values for torque sensor initial value and another value. It doesn't say what these should be but says they are for diagnostic purposes.
It may be useful for me to check these tomorrow at power up and then again if the fault occurs.
Perhaps the supplier can then make some sense of them??

 

[grecoa]

Fortunately I’ve not experienced such a problem. There have been difficult to diagnose problems which have come from incorrectly connecting the connectors. What happens is one or other of the pins in either a 5 or 8 pin connector are bent out of engagement - easily done.

It would help to know the motor data eg 48 or 36volt and where the battery came from. There are some very unreliable ones which have such poor capacity that the voltage sag which occurs “naturally” after a sustained effort can drop far enough to cause the motor controller or battery management system to shut down to protect the battery which is what could be happening with yours. As soon as the battery recovers, power is reapplied. They can switch off and on quite rapidly if they’re really bad.

Thanks DouglasXK,
Wouldn't a bent connector pin give a permanent fault?
Battery came from same Aliexpress supplier and is 36v 13.4ah. At the moment, with the amount of riding I have done the battery hasn't even dropped 1 bar on the display so battery voltage should still be quite high. It certainly didn't even drop a bar during my uphill run when the assistance was misbehaving.
I have no idea how I could test for BMS powering off and on. I guess it would need to be quite fast so as not to power off the VLCD5?

 

[TJS109]

Hi,

One easy thing to check is the speed sensor. Mine was intermittent for a while due to poor positioning. As such it sometimes fed back 66mph, when this happens the motor will stop all assistance

Tim

 

[grecoa]

Hi,

One easy thing to check is the speed sensor. Mine was intermittent for a while due to poor positioning. As such it sometimes fed back 66mph, when this happens the motor will stop all assistance

Tim

Thanks TJS109,
Physical set up looks good, magnet in line with arrow and about 5mm gap. Also the speed display is steady and constant even when the fault is apparent.

 

[grecoa]

Ok, I've found that ther's a hidden menu that appears to show torque sensor values. I'll add the VLCD-5 Manual PDF for info but you may well already have it. The Chinese to English may well have gotten a bit confused in translation...
It refers to "te" as Torque signal value
and
"te1" as initial torque
To access this menu, when powered on and "Odo" displayed at bottom left, press and hold "i"+"power" for 10 seconds, then press "i" to cycle through "Odo" "Trip" "Avg" "Time" then next press will show "te" then "te1"
On my system both "te" = 78 and "te1" = 78
Holding the brake and pressing a pedal had no effect when "te" was displayed, but when "te1" was displayed it caused a steady increase in the number from 78 with no pressure increasing smoothly to 150 with significant pressure.
From this I can only presume that the manual is slightly wrong and that "te" is initial torque registered at start up and that "te1" is the actual live torque signal being measured by the torque sensor.
It would be interesting to know what these figures are on another set up to compare with mine.
Also, just had a thought whilst typing, I only checked the LH crank torque sensor, I should also check the RH to see if similar response is given.

 

[grecoa]

I have just checked both LH and RH torque readings under fixed load by standing a weight on each pedal in turn with the crank turned forwards at 90 degrees. These were the results:
LH Crank:
Initial reading 78
2.2kg load 84
4.4kg load90
RH Crank:
Initial reading 78
2.2kg load 85
4.4kg load 92

I would guess that they are close enough to be OK.
I just need to get out on a road test and try and repeat the measurements if the fault becomes apparent.

 

[Woosh]

Hello Grecoa,

As you have already ruled out the battery, the problem is somewhere in the motor.

- torque sensor
- controller
- transmission components

As the fault occurs only when you climb a hill, I would rule out the torque sensor. I do not know any easy way to test the controller other than swapping it out for a new one. Re possibility of a transmission gear slipping, can you make a recording of the sound it makes when pulsing on/off?

By the way, how many miles have you done on it?

Best wishes,

Tony

Manual of VLCD5: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2018/tsdz2/VLCD5.pdf

 

[grecoa]

Hello Grecoa,

As you have already ruled out the battery, the problem is somewhere in the motor.

- torque sensor
- controller
- transmission components

As the fault occurs only when you climb a hill, I would rule out the torque sensor. I do not know any easy way to test the controller other than swapping it out for a new one. Re possibility of a transmission gear slipping, can you make a recording of the sound it makes when pulsing on/off?

By the way, how many miles have you done on it?

Best wishes,

Tony

Manual of VLCD5: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/2018/tsdz2/VLCD5.pdf

Thanks Tony
To add more confusion I have just returned from a 13 mile ride with a few climbs but nothing massive, and all worked perfectly

To me the fault didn't feel or sound mechanical like a transmission gear slipping, if felt intermittent electrical?? I have only done 50 miles.

By controller do you mean the power controller inside the motor unit?

Do the test figures that I got from the torque sensor mean anything to you?

Thanks again!

 

[Woosh]

To me the fault didn't feel or sound mechanical like a transmission gear slipping, if felt intermittent electrical?? I have only done 50 miles.

50 miles is not much, things may settle down now.

This is the bit in your comment that made me think that the idler gear may have been 'sticky'. If it is, then it should bed in by now.

Suddenly motor tone changed and loss of assistance (in fact it felt like resistance from the motor).

If the problem does not go away, you can always send your motor to me for checking.

All the best

Tony

 

[grecoa]

50 miles is not much, things may settle down now.

This is the bit in your comment that made me think that the idler gear may have been 'sticky'. If it is, then it should bed in by now.



If the problem does not go away, you can always send your motor to me for checking.

All the best

Tony

Thanks for your help.

If the weather permits, I'll try and put some miles on it to see what happens.

 

[Zac]

The problem you describe is usually caused by speed sensor and usually something as simple as the gap between magnet and sensor. I would mess around with that first before looking for anything complicated. A weak signal can confusingly produce an overspeed cut out which feels exactly as you have described. For a start is the magnet tight on the spoke it may need packing out or the plug tight as there is a resistance point prior to full insertion.

That secret menu is very useful for checking out the torque sensor. I used to use it all the time to see what human power I was inputting before I changed over to the open source firmware found on endless sphere which turns this somewhat dull drive system into a fantastic piece of kit by adding Field oriented control.

 

[Woosh]

yes, I agree with Zac. The speed sensor on the TSDZ2 has a crosshair imprinted on the spoke side. You need to line up the spoke magnet so it passes precisely over the crosshair. If your magnet is not lined up right, you will see the speed readout jumping weirdly. I've spent easily half an hour fiddling with the spoke magnet on my test Giant Defy, because the spokes are so close to the sensor, the magnet keeps hitting the sensor. I finally removed the sensor from its swivel base to give it some space.

 

[grecoa]

The problem you describe is usually caused by speed sensor and usually something as simple as the gap between magnet and sensor. I would mess around with that first before looking for anything complicated. A weak signal can confusingly produce an overspeed cut out which feels exactly as you have described. For a start is the magnet tight on the spoke it may need packing out or the plug tight as there is a resistance point prior to full insertion.

That secret menu is very useful for checking out the torque sensor. I used to use it all the time to see what human power I was inputting before I changed over to the open source firmware found on endless sphere which turns this somewhat dull drive system into a fantastic piece of kit by adding Field oriented control.

Thanks Zac.
Everything appears tightly connected and lined up ok with magnet in center of the arrow on sensor and a 5mm gap.
I suppose it could be the sensor that's faulty? As the magnet feels quite strong. Although the speed readout always appears constant and stable with no weird spurious readings.
I have spent rather a lot of time the last few days on endless sphere looking at the work that Casainho and others have done on the firmware. It looks very very interesting.
Once I know my system as working as it should I could be very interested in giving it a go...
Do you have any idea if the torque figures I got from my system look about right?