help choosing new bike.

flecc · Aug 11, 2007

No-one can give an opinion on the 905se yet Blanny, as it's only recently been going through finalising of the specification so we'll have to wait to find out.

However, the price is to be £1000.

Without even knowing the bike I'd advise against any full suspension bike for a capable cyclist, since suspension wastes so much effort though it's inefficiency. No serious club rider uses it, nor will it ever be seen in on road competition. Front suspension forks do make some sense on front motor bikes though, controlling the forces that result from the front wheel weight.

There's little choice where fast (= potentially illegal) bikes are concerned for obvious reasons, at present the Torq, and F series from eZee, and the forthcoming 905se. Choosing a bike with a high power motor means it will usually run to around 16/17 mph, where the lower powered ones often give up around 13/15 mph, but again there's not much choice there.

Two are the eZee Liv at £695 and the eZee Sprint at £995, but offhand I can't think of another, although the Wisper 905e may also run a bit beyond the legal point.
.

coops · Aug 11, 2007

Hi blanny & a warm welcome to pedelecs

I hadn't heard of poweredbicycles before, though the wrangler name rings a bell and I've seen many of those bikes before elsewhere, including the Powacycle models.

I take it you tried the Torq with limiter off

, though should point out that "offroad" speed is not the only extra included in the Torq price: accessories are standard (lights & rear rack) battery with close to double the capacity & range, higher "peak" power motor (most probably), better design & lighter weight, delivery, assembly and manufacturer's support, research & design are also included

.

Hard to quantify, but the cost of the added accessories, delivery, assembly and extra battery power alone is close to £200, and the more robust electrical system - controller & motor, aswell as research, design and support costs, and resulting quality of end product, make the difference.

Its a shame rip-off Britain still imposes such high import costs for ebikes which, on the contrary, should be subsidised especially in a supposedly environmentally-conscious era.

I believe batteries etc. can be invoiced separately by 50Cycles on bikes over £1000 so that the bike can be bought using the cycle to work scheme, but read more about this on the forum as there is much important information relevant to the various ways to use the scheme as to which are preferable to use, and which ones 50Cycles recommend

.

Forza and Forte have similar speed to Torq (when all are delimited) but with more torque & power for steep (>10%) hills if needed, maybe more information on performance of the awaited 905se will become available as & when, though I believe there is some information on proposed price & changes from the 905e on this forum - check the "905se" thread (in Wisper's clinic section, I think) for that

.

Hope that helps,

Stuart.

flecc · Aug 13, 2007

Since you're a fit rider and like speed, the Torq seems to be the choice as it has plenty of "presence" and good street cred.

As you're not far from Loughborough, why not go for test rides? That's always the best way to decide.
.

lum · Aug 13, 2007

blanny said:
thanks flecc
i have had a test on the torq last week and was very impressed ,the only stumbling block is the cash ,as my bike to work scheme only covers 1000 so would have to raise 200 myself with no tax savings.

Hi Blanny,

I bought my Torq through the bike to work scheme. I was allowed to go up to 1000 pre VAT (i.e. 1175 post VAT). 50cycles billed the 75 quid charger to me and the rest of the bike to my employer.

Works out a very small monthly amount spread over three years. Plus the Torq is a blast. I live in fairly hilly Glasgow and although people say it is not the best bike for hills it certainly rockets up everything I have tried. It is definitely a bike that rewards the swift rider. It is perfect for me as I like to put in some effort but I don't like going slowly up hills. The Torq allows me to go up hills at the same speed as I would be doing on a normal bike on the flat (well actually faster).

A very high proportion of the staff at my work bike to work, about 25%, but I am the only one that goes out on their bike again at lunchtime because it is so much fun.

coops · Aug 13, 2007

My experience of the Torq's performance is much the same as lum's, blanny

: it does work well on moderate gradients, especially with rider input to assist the motor, 10% or 1 in 10 is the generally accepted maximum for average weight but good strength riders (should you come across any hills!

), though depending on your preferred cadence you may want or need to change the gearing to achieve that: as standard its 52T front and 12-25 8-speed derailleur rear with Sora mech (up to 27T max largest rear sprocket) giving 58" bottom gear, which is more like a middle gear.

I found that a bit too high for starts without power, and the top 3 gears or so were unused, being too high, so I changed the front for a 40T which fitted my higher cadence style fine, giving ~44" low gear (matches the peak motor torque speed quite well for hills with ~85-90 cadence), 7th gear matches max motor cruising speed & top (8th) gear still allowing 25mph+ if necessary

(mostly only use that occasionally on moderate downhills).

I'd say the Torq is a very eyecatching bike, from the number of positive comments I've had

.

Stuart.

Ian · Aug 13, 2007

As a Torq owner I'll second the previous comments and I have covered lots of miles all over Leicestershire. As a reasonanbly fit rider you are unlikely to come across any terrain in the east midlands that will present any problems.
The Torq looks the part so should it should keep your image with the teenagers, unlike some bikes I can think of.
I'm not an expert on the ctw scheme but I didn't think VAT was payable, or at least would be reclaimable by the employer, and a Torq without VAT is only a tad over £1000. Also the fact you probably won't need delivery, which is usually included in the price gives some room for negotiation.. it did with me

.
I know that 50cycles have supplied a lot of bikes for the ctw scheme and undoubtably know how to get the most from it.

ITSPETEINIT · Aug 13, 2007

Warranty on Powered and Electric bikes - Nottingham

blanny said:
hello everyone .

i then visited long eaton (Powered and Electric Bikes stockist in Nottingham, UK) and tried a wrangler full suspension mountain bike and was impressed but not as much as the torq
although it was half the price at 599.
can i justify paying double for the extra speed has anybody any opinions dealings with poweredbicycles.co.uk as there are no reviews or information on their products.

I don't know if you have read the detailed warranty terms for this supplier - I think they are rather harsh and could be the subject of friction between you and the supplier in the event of a claim.

6/ ALL WARRANTIES WILL BE VOID IF ANY CHANGES, MODIFICATIONS OR PARTS OF THE BIKES OR SCOOTERS HAVE BEEN CHANGED BY ANYONE OTHER THAN THE SUPPLIER. THIS EVEN APPLIES TO TYRES & TUBES,LIGHTS AND LIGHT ANGLES.
WARRANTIES WILL ALSO BE VOID IF THE BIKE, SCOOTER OR KIT HAS BEEN MISTREATED AND NOT GENERALLY LOOKED AFTER AND MAINTAINED. SCOOTERS AND E-BIKES WILL BE DEEMED AS MISTREATED IF THE TYRES HAVE ANY FLAT SPOTS ON THEM CAUSED BY SKIDDING AND / OR HEAVY BRAKING. TYRE WEAR SHOULD BE EVEN ALL ROUND IF USED CORRECTLY. WARRANTY IS VOID IF HEAVY MUD FOUND ON OR IN ELECTRICS.

Peter

ITSPETEINIT · Aug 14, 2007

CTW Scheme

blanny said:
i have decided to go for the more expensive torq through the bike work sch.
i thank everyone for their advice and information in helping me make this decision.
i will let you know when i receive it and give you all a run down on my experiences.
my wife came for a test and now wants a pedelec does anyone know if self employed people can enter the scheme even though she works for herself.
thanks all

You can't as the present rules stand. The Self-employed do not pay tax through the PAYE system.

Peter

Ian · Aug 15, 2007

ITSPETEINIT said:
You can't as the present rules stand. The Self-employed do not pay tax through the PAYE system.

Peter

I seem to recall a post where a member had discovered that while the self employed can offset the cost of virtually any motor vehicle used for business purposes against tax, the same cannot be done with a bicycle.

frank9755 · Aug 15, 2007

I don't know about self-employed but if you have your own limited company, that company is allowed to buy a bicycle for your use, and can reclaim VAT, deduct the cost from profits, etc. I can't see any reason of principle why the same shouldn't apply to a self-employed/sole trader, so unless you have clear and informed advice to the contrary, if I were you I'd go ahead and do it and assume it will be allowed.

Frank

ITSPETEINIT · Aug 15, 2007

Self Employed and CTW

frank9755 said:
I don't know about self-employed but if you have your own limited company, that company is allowed to buy a bicycle for your use, and can reclaim VAT, deduct the cost from profits, etc. I can't see any reason of principle why the same shouldn't apply to a self-employed/sole trader, so unless you have clear and informed advice to the contrary, if I were you I'd go ahead and do it and assume it will be allowed.

Frank

It is no strange quirk of law that a Company Director is not Self Employed - he/she is an employee of THE company and pays tax and NIC thru the PAYE system.
If a COMPANY buys an Electric Cycle for an EMPLOYEE then the payment/repayments may be deducted from salary BEFORE Tax and NIC is calculated (subject to upper limits as to price).
There is NO mechanism where a Self employed person can obtain tax/NIC relief from PAYE deductions simply because they do not pay tax by that method.
I agree that the self employed should not be excluded from the scheme but that's not law.
A self employed person, when his profits are assessed for Tax Purposes (Under Schedule D) he should claim capital allowances (whatever they may be for the time being), from "Plant and Machinery" (as it is universally known) bought for the purposes of the business. AND if the business is registered for VAT, reclaim the VAT included in the cost.
HOWEVER, there may be a case for apportioning the allowance and the VAT between the Private use portion and the business portion, thereby diminishing the amount of tax saving.
The S/E do not pay Class 1 NIC so there will be no saving there- HOWEVER they do pay Class 4 NIC which is net profit based after deducting capital allowances and there may be, subject to the upper and lower thresholds of that 'charge', some saving.
The S/E also pay Class 2 NIC but that is not subject to a 'profits' test - it's a straight contribution (unless you are exempt by reason of low profits).

If you are a Sole Trader/in Partnership you will probably have an accountant familiar with the rules of the taxation of businesses and even the CTW scheme.
If you are the Director of an Incorporated company (Posh for 'limited') you must have Auditors who are probably also accountants duly certified and registered as required by the Companies Act (don't ask me which edition).
You could get a categorical answer from the 'horse's mouth'.
Peter

frank9755 · Aug 15, 2007

The £1,000 limit is to do with the repayments, not the actual purchase of a cycle. It is a specific exception which means the employer does not have to be subject to consumer credit regulations and the associated admin, which presumably would put most employers off the scheme if they were forced to comply with it.

If you have a limited company and it buys you a bike and does not ask you for repayment but just lends it to you, as is its perogative, there is no £1,000 limit.

Under Cycles for Work, there's no requirement to keep records, so even if an over-zealous accountant were to try to apportion bicycle use, they could not base it on anything other than what you tell them.

Frank

ITSPETEINIT · Aug 15, 2007

CTW Scheme tax relief

frank9755 said:
If you have a limited company and it buys you a bike and does not ask you for repayment but just lends it to you, as is its perogative, there is no £1,000 limit.

Under Cycles for Work, there's no requirement to keep records, so even if an over-zealous accountant were to try to apportion bicycle use, they could not base it on anything other than what you tell them.

Frank

Hello Frank:
It is (to split hairs) a contradiction for a limited company "to buy you a bike" and "then just lend it to you". If it was 'bought for you' the benefit would be its capital cost (including VAT). If it "was lent to you" then the benefit would be an annual charge based upon it's capital cost (somewhat like company cars).
The provision of benefit to an Employee/Director is taxable as 'a benefit in kind' (although the rules for this are somewhat complicated).
It is rather like the position, tax wise, with Company Cars (except that in those cases the benefits are clearly defined and managed).
I was not suggesting that the 'cost' of a CTW cycle would be apportioned in the accounts of a LIMITED Company: the whole of the capital and running costs of a Cycle bought for company use would be allowed against profits for Corporation Tax purposes, provided the asset used by the Employee/Director was the subject of the taxation of a benefit in kind (declared on the Director/Employee's Form P11d -
The apportionment of costs (capital and running) are applied in the Computation of Profits for tax purposes of a SOLE TRADER or PARTNERSHIP (unincorporated company) to arrive at the 'Adjusted profits for Tax Purposes'.

The Accountant is NOT 'the last court of appeal' in deciding what is an allowable business expense and what is not. That is the prerogative of the Inspector of Taxes. Of course, one always has the right of appeal to the General Commissioners against HMIT's decision, and if one feels that they have not made the right decision, onwards and upwards to The House of Lords. It's getting a bit tricky now if the taxpayer has told HMIT a 'fib'.

BUT this is academic, because under the CTW scheme the scheme cannot be applied to the self employed. The purchase of a cycle for 'business use' or 'part business and part private use' (the later is where apportionment will be applied) is required to be entered into the Trader's records if he is to substantiate a claim for tax relief against his assessable profits (Capital Allowances) otherwise it will simply not be a deduction to establish his tax liability.
Since the Purchase of a Bicycle is rather a rare event in business expenses, it is not unlikely that it will attract the attention of HMIT, who may then ask (if an apportionment has not been offered to him in the Computation of Profits for Tax Purposes) for a suggested apportionment percentage (or ratio) of business to private use, bases upon relevant mileages. It would be as well to bear in mind here that the journeys undertaken travelling from the Trader's home address to the business address is treated as Private Use. HMIT will be aware of the 'gap' because it will have been declared to him in the Self Assessment Tax Return of the Trader (i.e. the addresses notified). It is the responsibility of the Trader to maintain a proper record, contemporaneously, of business and private mileage.
It would be a very unwise person who tried to deceive HMIT for such a minor advantage since HM Revenue and Customs are very much alive to ways in which they can legitimately increase the tax take in the present economic climate.
If the Trader (or his Accountant) made an 'error' when submitting accounts to HMIT and that 'error' carried on for 5 years, (or 10 years in the case of fraud), the interest and penalties accruing out of the 'omission' would be very substantial.
How does HMIT find out? They just do!
Peter

frank9755 · Aug 15, 2007

Hi Pete,

I agree with most of what you say, however your first point (if I interpret it correctly, and forgive me if I have not!) is not correct. A company can indeed buy a bike and simply lend it to an employee and this is not taxable as a benefit in kind. This is how the relevant page on the Dept for Transport web site sets it out:

"To take advantage of the tax and Class 1A NICs exemption, an employer can simply buy a cycle and cyclists' safety equipment, reclaim the VAT, make use of the capital allowances and loan it to an employee for qualifying journeys to work. This arrangement means that the employee's normal salary arrangements are not affected. It may be, however, that the employer wants to recover the cost of providing the cycle and safety equipment loaned to the employee. Usually this would be done through a salary sacrifice arrangement."

I know sole traders are not eligible for Cycles to Work, however my reading of the DfT website is that the paragraph I have quoted is not actually part of the scheme. Therefore I feel it may well be applicable to a sole trader.

Have a look at the link and tell me if you read it differently.

Frank

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